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<blockquote data-quote="nevin" data-source="post: 8699720" data-attributes="member: 7024481">The high level stuff only messes up the game if you play low magic worlds where no one else can do that stuff. If you want nitty gritty leave it out. But don't take it away from those of us that like to use it.&nbsp;&nbsp; And wizards always had 9th level spells and clerics had up to 7th and they both still had nearly all the stuff people complain about, teleport, wish, miracle.&nbsp; D&amp;D was never made for nitty gritty low magic play even at low levels in 1st ed.&nbsp;&nbsp; Look at what some of the magic items in the 1st ed DMG could do compared to spells.the only complaint about high level based on reality is that it is a pain in the ass to plan for that many options.&nbsp; But IME if you actually run the campaign that high then you know your players abilities and likely reactions as well as they do. Plus a DM has to get really good at keeping secrets.&nbsp; It is so hard to do when you want to talk to your friends about all the stuff spinning in the background.&nbsp; But for high level games to work all the high level NPC's and organizations have to have thier secrets and actually keep them. Baddies that have been around will know at least some of what you know and plan accordingly.&nbsp; NPC's that are friendly will also make plans based on what they think the Pc&quot;S&nbsp; will do. think of it like this. level 7 game players get a ring of wishing.&nbsp; Djinn appears grants their wish consequences follow good or bad game continues.&nbsp; Level 18 game, players get thier ring of wishing summon the Djinn make thier wish he goes free.&nbsp; Then the Royal Sultan of the holy winds declares Jihad on the players for insulting him and his firstborn by taking his wish instead of honorably freeing him from his forced servitude, and declares that any who help them in any way will be enemies as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; by the time they get back to thier city the King is dead one of the watch towers is in Ruins and everyone knows the players started the war.&nbsp;&nbsp; They can go kill the Sultan but it won't stop the war.&nbsp; They can defend the city but it won't stop the war.&nbsp; Ok players your move........&nbsp;&nbsp; did the players know what would happen of course not but in a high level game some action pulls strings globally or universally.&nbsp;&nbsp; I like this kind of game.&nbsp; But you can't write a dungeon for it and you can't plan for everything you really have to be able to run half or more of it completly off the cuff because there are no rails with players at that level.&nbsp; If you do introduce rails they'll disintegrate them and move on.I'll give you that the Epic handbook was a steaming pile......&nbsp;&nbsp; Honestly I always thought for people that want high level there should be something like the Palladium hero's system.&nbsp; I think the biggest problem with 12+ is that it begins to transisition into a game where resources, Secrets, and alliances become more important.&nbsp; A lot of DM's don't like to do that stuff.&nbsp; For them level 10 is it start over.&nbsp;&nbsp; That kind of player and DM was what basic, then intermediate and then expert D&amp;D rules were for.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="nevin, post: 8699720, member: 7024481"] The high level stuff only messes up the game if you play low magic worlds where no one else can do that stuff. If you want nitty gritty leave it out. But don't take it away from those of us that like to use it. And wizards always had 9th level spells and clerics had up to 7th and they both still had nearly all the stuff people complain about, teleport, wish, miracle. D&D was never made for nitty gritty low magic play even at low levels in 1st ed. Look at what some of the magic items in the 1st ed DMG could do compared to spells. the only complaint about high level based on reality is that it is a pain in the ass to plan for that many options. But IME if you actually run the campaign that high then you know your players abilities and likely reactions as well as they do. Plus a DM has to get really good at keeping secrets. It is so hard to do when you want to talk to your friends about all the stuff spinning in the background. But for high level games to work all the high level NPC's and organizations have to have thier secrets and actually keep them. Baddies that have been around will know at least some of what you know and plan accordingly. NPC's that are friendly will also make plans based on what they think the Pc"S will do. think of it like this. level 7 game players get a ring of wishing. Djinn appears grants their wish consequences follow good or bad game continues. Level 18 game, players get thier ring of wishing summon the Djinn make thier wish he goes free. Then the Royal Sultan of the holy winds declares Jihad on the players for insulting him and his firstborn by taking his wish instead of honorably freeing him from his forced servitude, and declares that any who help them in any way will be enemies as well. by the time they get back to thier city the King is dead one of the watch towers is in Ruins and everyone knows the players started the war. They can go kill the Sultan but it won't stop the war. They can defend the city but it won't stop the war. Ok players your move........ did the players know what would happen of course not but in a high level game some action pulls strings globally or universally. I like this kind of game. But you can't write a dungeon for it and you can't plan for everything you really have to be able to run half or more of it completly off the cuff because there are no rails with players at that level. If you do introduce rails they'll disintegrate them and move on. I'll give you that the Epic handbook was a steaming pile...... Honestly I always thought for people that want high level there should be something like the Palladium hero's system. I think the biggest problem with 12+ is that it begins to transisition into a game where resources, Secrets, and alliances become more important. A lot of DM's don't like to do that stuff. For them level 10 is it start over. That kind of player and DM was what basic, then intermediate and then expert D&D rules were for. [/QUOTE]

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