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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 774658" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>Hint... swapping the ride skill out for "intimidate" skill for a fighter  is not really losing anything. The trait you are swapping out almost BY DEFINITION is one you did not intend to use with that character.In my experience, the above statement is a clear case of hyperbole.First off though, you and i have one glaring difference in our perspectives.You seem to see having for instance 30 spells on the class spell list as more powerful than having 20 spells on the class spell list. As such adding a new spell to you seems to be put in the same framework as actually gaining a new known spell.i don't.In my experience, most casters use less than 20% of the spells on the list. In my experience wizards  learn ay most ever (into their spellbooks) at most 50% and frequently much less.A spell you dont knwo is not a power boost.A spell you know, whether by research or by finding a scroll, is replacing another spell you could have known.What matters for power gauging is "I know 10 balancedspells" vs "i know 20 balanced spells" not whether or not they came from PHB, BoEM, TnB, MoF, from the GM's devilish mind or the player's angelic innovations!If a fighter player pre-E&A asked for a "Ac to to-hit" feat akin to expertise in reverse, would he be MORE POWERFUL if i added the feat to the game but his character did not have it yet? Does the character actually beat more monsters based on the fact that later on he might be able to take a feat he couldn't before?NO.He gets more powerful only after the feat is selected and in play.Now, sure, months later the feat is published and becomes official. Do the enemy fighters who never took the feat now become deadlier adversaries because the list of "feast i did not take" is now larger?That is where we differ. At its core, since neither of us is likely to change that perspective. we cannot thus reach an agreement, except to disagree.IMO, increasing the list of "feats i haven't take, skills i haven't known, and spells i haven't learned" is not a power up for the character in question. IMO, increasing the list of "feats i have taken, skills i have , and spells i know" are all power ups but as long as the individual elements remain balanced no more than if "standard" spells were taken...This of course assumes the book spells are balanced which we know is untrue.See above.Expanding the class spell list is to me "expanding the list of spells i dont know" if the spell is not added to the character's spell's known. Thats not a significant power up, IMO.We disagree and will continue to do so.[/QUOTE]

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