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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 1744381" data-attributes="member: 19675">Ridley, I have an excellent grasp of what I'm discussing.  I have read the Edda, the Kalevala, Beowulf, and other texts describing the legends of northern Europe and Asia.  I have collections of European folklore, both the familiar Western European, and also Eastern European legends of the slavs, Russians and others.  I have also own and have read things like tranlations of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, various Egyptian scrolls, Greek legends, etc.  I'm familiar with the concept of the Bardo, the "veil of Maya", maat, ka & ba, etc.While there is no mention of undeath as such (as depicted in D&D) anywhere in the sources of teutonic legends , many of the aspects of certain beings who have died and yet continue to act conform to D&D undeath as a template or model.  In Norse mythology, the warriors of Valhalla are UNIQUE in their ability to die and rise again.  The Asgardians cannot do that, the Vanir cannot do that, Jotuns cannot do that, the subjects of Hel (deceased spirits NOT in Valhalla) cannot do that.  For every other being in teutonic legend, dead is dead.  Their state is unlike any other dead or living creatures.Nor is a ghostly parent/lover guardian a "natural state" of a spirit.  The natural state of a spirit is repose in its culture's version of the afterlife, not messing around with those still trapped on the mortal coil.  Thus, someone who hangs around after death in order to do things on the mortal plane is undead, even in D&D.  Read the creature descriptions of revenants, ghosts, haunts, banshees and others- they are undead with unfinished business.  Yes, I realize that they are all statted out as evil, but my point (and presumbably the thread's OP) is that does not neccessarily jibe with these creatures' origins.  Why is it that a revenant who is trying to kill his killer is neccessarily evil?  Why is the ghost of a loving parent who is guarding his children neccessarily evil?Because people in the legends, afraid of their undead countenances, believe they are evil, and that fear and preconception has been injected into the game.Was J.O. Barr's The Crow the story of an evil person?  No, despite the fact that the Crow meets most of the other requirements to be called a revenant in D&D.How about Patrick Swayze in Ghost?  Or how about the spirits of those unjustly slain in the Tower of London and other locations-evil?  Probably not evil, despite being classic ghosts, spirits or haunts in game terms.In classic fantasy liturature, Fritz Lieber's Sons of Kyuss from the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books are also NOT evil- they are the undead defenders of Lankhmar, and among their ranks are past rulers, warriors and wizards who loved the city.  They are not immortals- they are clearly described as the walking dead- and yet they are a force- if not for good- then for divine justice and peace in the city of Lankhmar.As I have stated numerous times before- the D&D system does not distinguish between involuntary undeath and voluntary undeath.  The necromancer who defiles a graveyard to raise an army to take a city is, in game terms, no more or less evil than the priest who asks for volunteers to defend their beloved city as skeletal warriors for eternity.Similarly, a priest of Osiris (a good greater diety) might find it the greatest honor to be preserved in his god's temple or his Pharoah's pyramid as a (D&D Greater) mummy to keep the temple from being defiled by unbelievers and tomb raiders.  Even a valued guard might volunteer for such eternal service.  Yet, by definition within D&D, each will be considered evil, despite volunteering for this duty in the service of a good god.This does not make sense!</blockquote>

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