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Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7850072" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>Like I said back <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/why-does-wizards-of-the-coast-hate-wizards.668436/page-3#post-7849863" target="_blank">in post 41</a>, it's not any one thing. It's the fact that all of the tools that the wizard lass used to be able to put on a pedestal have effectively been given to the classes they used to compete with in those areas or those other classes were given a version that is almost as good. You can't argue any one of those pillars in a vacuum. It doesn't matter that it's a good thing other classes are competent with knowledge skills now; what matters is that wizards aren't really any better in that area where they used to excel in addition to so many other areas with the same treatment.</p><p></p><p>I didn't respond to your but wizards got spontaneous casting point because you were trying to argue things in a vacuum. Giving everyone spontaneous casting was both good and bad but there are a lot of pieces that you need to add up to a whole rather than just looking at that.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerers now are the only ones with metamagic, it used to be options for wizard bonus feats. That's huge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Almost all the other wizard bonus feats (many of them right down to the name) are warlock invocations</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerer and warlock are both front loaded charisma based classes with abilities that stack in a multiplicative way that no sane 3.5 gm would do anything but laugh if a player brought it to them as some homebrew</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fact that spells are upcast rather than scaling with caster level benefits the shorter spell list that sorcerers have</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fact that damage types are generally irrelevant minimizes the value of having a larger spell list because now you can cast a particular spell using any slot you have where before in 3.5 you needed a 5th level spell like cone of cold or cloudkill to use a 5th level spell.... now you don't need to worry that <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm" target="_blank">cloudkill</a> was probably poor against an adult white dragon or that <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm" target="_blank">cone of cold</a> was a cone with cold damage because you can cast chromatic orb, ray of sickness, burning hands, cloud of daggers, reduce, scorching ray, suggestion, or even fireball out of that 5th level slot. In the end that expanded spell list is of dubious value.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yes wizard probably has a lot of utility /buff/debuff spells not available to sorcerer, but concentration requirements dramatically hamstring the value. If that were the only change it wouldn't be a big deal, but when combined with so many of the wizard's other core pillars of pride being washed away or duplicated the loss is tangible.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When you figure that the wizard needs to find the spell in some form then spend gold to scribe it before they can use their "better" spell swap to the fact that the sorcerer & warlock both have full access to their class's<em> entire</em> spell list with their spell versatility it's hard to argue that the shorter list is A shorter, B even a meaninful handicap to scorlock, or C that the larger wizard list is especially meaningful in practice</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 7850072, member: 93670"] Like I said back [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/why-does-wizards-of-the-coast-hate-wizards.668436/page-3#post-7849863']in post 41[/URL], it's not any one thing. It's the fact that all of the tools that the wizard lass used to be able to put on a pedestal have effectively been given to the classes they used to compete with in those areas or those other classes were given a version that is almost as good. You can't argue any one of those pillars in a vacuum. It doesn't matter that it's a good thing other classes are competent with knowledge skills now; what matters is that wizards aren't really any better in that area where they used to excel in addition to so many other areas with the same treatment. I didn't respond to your but wizards got spontaneous casting point because you were trying to argue things in a vacuum. Giving everyone spontaneous casting was both good and bad but there are a lot of pieces that you need to add up to a whole rather than just looking at that. [LIST] [*]Sorcerers now are the only ones with metamagic, it used to be options for wizard bonus feats. That's huge. [*]Almost all the other wizard bonus feats (many of them right down to the name) are warlock invocations [*]Sorcerer and warlock are both front loaded charisma based classes with abilities that stack in a multiplicative way that no sane 3.5 gm would do anything but laugh if a player brought it to them as some homebrew [*]The fact that spells are upcast rather than scaling with caster level benefits the shorter spell list that sorcerers have [*]The fact that damage types are generally irrelevant minimizes the value of having a larger spell list because now you can cast a particular spell using any slot you have where before in 3.5 you needed a 5th level spell like cone of cold or cloudkill to use a 5th level spell.... now you don't need to worry that [URL='http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm']cloudkill[/URL] was probably poor against an adult white dragon or that [URL='http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm']cone of cold[/URL] was a cone with cold damage because you can cast chromatic orb, ray of sickness, burning hands, cloud of daggers, reduce, scorching ray, suggestion, or even fireball out of that 5th level slot. In the end that expanded spell list is of dubious value. [*]Yes wizard probably has a lot of utility /buff/debuff spells not available to sorcerer, but concentration requirements dramatically hamstring the value. If that were the only change it wouldn't be a big deal, but when combined with so many of the wizard's other core pillars of pride being washed away or duplicated the loss is tangible. [*]When you figure that the wizard needs to find the spell in some form then spend gold to scribe it before they can use their "better" spell swap to the fact that the sorcerer & warlock both have full access to their class's[I] entire[/I] spell list with their spell versatility it's hard to argue that the shorter list is A shorter, B even a meaninful handicap to scorlock, or C that the larger wizard list is especially meaningful in practice [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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