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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7853183" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>You are comparing the cantrip to the weapon and not the extra attack feature.</p><p></p><p>Cantrips do one, two, three, or eventually 4 dice worth of damage. Then add bonuses. Weapons do damage then add bonus then increase number of attacks. A cantrip would have to add bonus damage to each die to match that effect.</p><p></p><p>I prefer battle master archers so the arrow pretty typical for me.</p><p></p><p>At 1st level the difference is d8+3 (7.5) with a +2 bonus to hit from fighting style. A sorcerer can do d10 (5.5) firebolts for less damage with less accuracy. At 2nd level the fighter adds action surge and at 3rd level the sorcerer adds meta-magic while the fighter adds superiority dice. At 4th level they both get an ASI for an equal benefit.</p><p></p><p>At 5th level firebolt does 2d10 (11) damage. Each arrow does d8+4 (8.5) still with better accuracy (17). The sorcerer has to miss once to do no damage and the fighter has to miss twice to do no damage. Range cut into the damage for the archer compared to melee but the archer has benefits. At 6th level the dragon sorcerer adds +4 from CHA to get 15 and the fighter adds DEX again so the accuracy gap increases and the damage goes to 19. That ASI increased damage twice because of extra attack.</p><p></p><p>At 8th level the sorcerer can add that second ASI so DEX and CHA sync back up to 20 each. The fighter adds sharpshooter so ranged accuracy is much better, and damage can be increased per weapon attack more. Ignoring the better accuracy and the sorcerer damage goes up to 16 compared to 39 because we've been ignoring accuracy up until now. That's ~10 for the sorcerer and ~19 for the fighter. If the fighter misses once and hits once the fighter would do more damage than the sorcerer hitting every single time. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>The next jump is 11th level when firebolt adds d10 and the fighter adds another attack that also adds every bonus. The sorcerer is still hit or miss and the fighter needs to miss 3 times to do no damage. We're up to 21.5 for the sorcerer and 30.5 for the fighter as a base with higher accuracy, That's only adding the ability mod because that's spell caster don't add a lot of bonuses. At this point the sorcerer added it once and the fighter added it 3 times, however, because multiple attacks multiplies it out, as I stated. With accuracy that's ~14 for the sorcerer and ~23 for the fighter.</p><p></p><p>Adding in the extra feat for sharpshooter spent and accuracy goes down but the fighter still needs 3 misses for no damage. Extra attack means it's not binary hit or miss, similar to save for half spells. That's not something that's noticeable in DPR calc's but it turned out to be noticeable in gameplay, IME. The base on sharpshooter is 58.5 and after accuracy is ~30 DPR. 30 is a boat load more than 14 and the impact of multiplying damage through extra attacks.</p><p></p><p>It's true that spell casters do not get a lot of bonuses to damage. That's part of the point. Fighters get bonus ASI's and fighting styles to be included in the multiplicative effect while adding bonuses. The comparison above doesn't include the situational benefits of maneuvers, spells, or meta-magic. Or running out of arrows and needing to switch out to weapons, which I've done. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Fighters aren't struggling in this area. Cantrips are just poor damage in the over-all grand scheme of things. If I really want a shine moment I'll action surge, use the sharpshooter damage bonus, and top off precision for a nova. That's not bothering to focus hard. It's standard with a good feat.</p><p></p><p>NOTE: accuracy is ballparked in all examples because detailed match doesn't significantly impact the illustrated points.</p><p></p><p>The next key points aren't until 17th level for cantrips and 20th level for another extra attack.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7853183, member: 6750235"] You are comparing the cantrip to the weapon and not the extra attack feature. Cantrips do one, two, three, or eventually 4 dice worth of damage. Then add bonuses. Weapons do damage then add bonus then increase number of attacks. A cantrip would have to add bonus damage to each die to match that effect. I prefer battle master archers so the arrow pretty typical for me. At 1st level the difference is d8+3 (7.5) with a +2 bonus to hit from fighting style. A sorcerer can do d10 (5.5) firebolts for less damage with less accuracy. At 2nd level the fighter adds action surge and at 3rd level the sorcerer adds meta-magic while the fighter adds superiority dice. At 4th level they both get an ASI for an equal benefit. At 5th level firebolt does 2d10 (11) damage. Each arrow does d8+4 (8.5) still with better accuracy (17). The sorcerer has to miss once to do no damage and the fighter has to miss twice to do no damage. Range cut into the damage for the archer compared to melee but the archer has benefits. At 6th level the dragon sorcerer adds +4 from CHA to get 15 and the fighter adds DEX again so the accuracy gap increases and the damage goes to 19. That ASI increased damage twice because of extra attack. At 8th level the sorcerer can add that second ASI so DEX and CHA sync back up to 20 each. The fighter adds sharpshooter so ranged accuracy is much better, and damage can be increased per weapon attack more. Ignoring the better accuracy and the sorcerer damage goes up to 16 compared to 39 because we've been ignoring accuracy up until now. That's ~10 for the sorcerer and ~19 for the fighter. If the fighter misses once and hits once the fighter would do more damage than the sorcerer hitting every single time. ;) The next jump is 11th level when firebolt adds d10 and the fighter adds another attack that also adds every bonus. The sorcerer is still hit or miss and the fighter needs to miss 3 times to do no damage. We're up to 21.5 for the sorcerer and 30.5 for the fighter as a base with higher accuracy, That's only adding the ability mod because that's spell caster don't add a lot of bonuses. At this point the sorcerer added it once and the fighter added it 3 times, however, because multiple attacks multiplies it out, as I stated. With accuracy that's ~14 for the sorcerer and ~23 for the fighter. Adding in the extra feat for sharpshooter spent and accuracy goes down but the fighter still needs 3 misses for no damage. Extra attack means it's not binary hit or miss, similar to save for half spells. That's not something that's noticeable in DPR calc's but it turned out to be noticeable in gameplay, IME. The base on sharpshooter is 58.5 and after accuracy is ~30 DPR. 30 is a boat load more than 14 and the impact of multiplying damage through extra attacks. It's true that spell casters do not get a lot of bonuses to damage. That's part of the point. Fighters get bonus ASI's and fighting styles to be included in the multiplicative effect while adding bonuses. The comparison above doesn't include the situational benefits of maneuvers, spells, or meta-magic. Or running out of arrows and needing to switch out to weapons, which I've done. ;) Fighters aren't struggling in this area. Cantrips are just poor damage in the over-all grand scheme of things. If I really want a shine moment I'll action surge, use the sharpshooter damage bonus, and top off precision for a nova. That's not bothering to focus hard. It's standard with a good feat. NOTE: accuracy is ballparked in all examples because detailed match doesn't significantly impact the illustrated points. The next key points aren't until 17th level for cantrips and 20th level for another extra attack. [/QUOTE]
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