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Message: <blockquote data-quote="haakon1" data-source="post: 5104630" data-attributes="member: 25619">Fantasy logic v. game logicI don't think I said 4e "not fantasy".  Indeed that's nonsense.Not to repeat myself too much, but what I mean is there's a fundamental difference in what earlier D&D was trying to do, versus 4e.In earlier editions, it's pretty clear that the rules on werewolves or bows are INSPIRED by something outside the game -- the legends and movies and pulp fiction about werewolves, and the actual medieval history + wargaming usage of bows, respectively.The rules exist to turn pre-existing ideas into a gameable collective fantasy.Whereas in 4e, all is sui generis -- Radiant Blah exists because of a need to balance against other powers of that level and frequency of use for other classes, to fire up this ability against that defense.  It's NOT trying to simulate a myth or a story in pulp swords & sorcery, or a historical/war gaming reality -- it's trying to create a balanced game, with a fantasy setting.That is, earlier D&D is FANTASY first, turned into a game.  The fluff comes first, rules only later, to turn the fantasy into game we can step into and play around in.This delights some because it feels rightbut it annoys others because the rules aren't necessarily clean and balanced, and have a lot of weird elements.Fans love the fluff driven rules: Werewolves are what we grew up with them being, and legends about silver weapons and wolvesbane are applicable because they exist in legend, so they were ported to the game.Foes think about it from a gamey perspective and have no interest in the fluff where it makes for fiddlely rules: "Who added this wolvesbane power?  How is it balanced that eating a plant remove a curse, but only in this one type of curse? Where are the rules how to activate this power?  Why doesn't it fit into the normal rules for removing curses or making potions or something?"4e is a game, with fantasy fluff.  The rules come first, fluff is an afterthought.  This delights some because it's clean and balanced, and annoys others because it feels bizarre.Fans says, "Ah, I can breathe free.  Finally all classes work by the same logic - an At Will is an At Will, I no longer care if they fluff says its a spell or a sword swing.  And balance means no more dump stats, all stats can contribute to a defense and/or offense of some kind."Foes says, "Wait, I can attack with my sword using a CHARISMA modified to hit if I take this power for paladin.  How the heck can use Charisma to swing a sword?  And my Reflex defense is based on my Intelligence?  Why?  How are smart people better at dodging?"I get all this from 29 years of AD&D and 3e, and 1 night (last night!) of 4e.  But I think I understood it right.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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