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Why doesn't the help action have more limits and down sides?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7446901" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>All the time, actually. Even if you're playing in a way that the party is never separated, never has divergent goals, and always puts it's best [-]PC[\-] forward, there's still plenty of chance for failure. Take your +5 (as good as it gets until 4th without expertise). That PC -- a well trained and physically/mentally adept character has a 20% chance to fail <em>at an easy task</em>. That's, like, huge. Easy is driving to the store to pick up some milk. Easy is changing a diaper (well, that can range up to nearly impossible, but we'll go with the cakewalk changes). Would you accept a 1/5 chance of failure after receiving extensive training and being in the top 10% physically and mentally for the job? DC 10 is EASY, and yet this PC can fail quite readily. Heck, an <em>expert at this task</em> still has a 1/10 chance of failing at this experience level. Good grief, as a player, I try everything in my power to not make rolls if at all possible because my well-trained, naturally talented PC has a solid chance of tanking that roll (h/t [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]).</p><p></p><p>Sure, after a few levels, some proficiency bonuses, some ASIs, my PC may graduate to the level of the Easy stuff being automatic. That's not a case for decrying the system, it's a case of 'thank the gods I no longer have a random 1/20 (or worse) chance of tanking this easy task!'</p><p></p><p>Even the highly skilled* don't auto-beat a DC 15 until they get a +14, which is a +5 stat and level 13+ <em>with expertise</em>. Without expertise, a PC never gets to the skill level of being able to beat a DC 15 task more than 85% of the time. Think on that, a level 20 character gets a +11 on proficient things (barbarians can actually hit +13 on STR, so they're a bit better off). That's plenty of risk for the moderately difficult tasks in adventuring. The poor off-stat proficient are sitting at a whopping +5 or so, so that's a 45% chance of losing a <em>moderately difficult challenge when you're level 13 and proficient</em>. Good grief, if anything, the skill DCs are punishingly hard.</p><p></p><p>(*Rogues, with reliable talent, throw this all off, though. It totally tanks the bounded accuracy assumptions, but then, why care? Rogues get shafted most everywhere else except action economy, why not let them be actually competent at the things they're proficient in? Still, I do wish a better way had been found. Even setting the floor at 5 would have been good. But, if it's not a prime stat skill with expertise, the rogue's bonus is still only around a +5 or 6 at the end of tier III, and that doesn't help those occasional DC 20s <em>at all</em>. Basically, if reliable talent doesn't autosucceed, it doesn't help, which is weird, if you think about it. Ah well, enough of this rant against the clunky design of reliable talent.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7446901, member: 16814"] All the time, actually. Even if you're playing in a way that the party is never separated, never has divergent goals, and always puts it's best [-]PC[\-] forward, there's still plenty of chance for failure. Take your +5 (as good as it gets until 4th without expertise). That PC -- a well trained and physically/mentally adept character has a 20% chance to fail [I]at an easy task[/I]. That's, like, huge. Easy is driving to the store to pick up some milk. Easy is changing a diaper (well, that can range up to nearly impossible, but we'll go with the cakewalk changes). Would you accept a 1/5 chance of failure after receiving extensive training and being in the top 10% physically and mentally for the job? DC 10 is EASY, and yet this PC can fail quite readily. Heck, an [I]expert at this task[/I] still has a 1/10 chance of failing at this experience level. Good grief, as a player, I try everything in my power to not make rolls if at all possible because my well-trained, naturally talented PC has a solid chance of tanking that roll (h/t [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]). Sure, after a few levels, some proficiency bonuses, some ASIs, my PC may graduate to the level of the Easy stuff being automatic. That's not a case for decrying the system, it's a case of 'thank the gods I no longer have a random 1/20 (or worse) chance of tanking this easy task!' Even the highly skilled* don't auto-beat a DC 15 until they get a +14, which is a +5 stat and level 13+ [I]with expertise[/I]. Without expertise, a PC never gets to the skill level of being able to beat a DC 15 task more than 85% of the time. Think on that, a level 20 character gets a +11 on proficient things (barbarians can actually hit +13 on STR, so they're a bit better off). That's plenty of risk for the moderately difficult tasks in adventuring. The poor off-stat proficient are sitting at a whopping +5 or so, so that's a 45% chance of losing a [I]moderately difficult challenge when you're level 13 and proficient[/I]. Good grief, if anything, the skill DCs are punishingly hard. (*Rogues, with reliable talent, throw this all off, though. It totally tanks the bounded accuracy assumptions, but then, why care? Rogues get shafted most everywhere else except action economy, why not let them be actually competent at the things they're proficient in? Still, I do wish a better way had been found. Even setting the floor at 5 would have been good. But, if it's not a prime stat skill with expertise, the rogue's bonus is still only around a +5 or 6 at the end of tier III, and that doesn't help those occasional DC 20s [I]at all[/I]. Basically, if reliable talent doesn't autosucceed, it doesn't help, which is weird, if you think about it. Ah well, enough of this rant against the clunky design of reliable talent.) [/QUOTE]
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