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Why doesn't the help action have more limits and down sides?
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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 7447481" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>My skill system:</p><p></p><p>If you do not use an action, your skill check is 10+your skill. No roll. +/- 5 for advantage/disadvantage. (Yes, I know about reliable talent...wait).</p><p></p><p>If you use an action, reaction or bonus action when using a skill (as appropriate), you roll a d20 and add your modifier - but 10 is generally treated as the minimum roll. You're always going to be as good as at least your passive roll ... unless you're under pressure.</p><p></p><p>If you are under pressure (which is generally any situation where time is short or failure has immediate significant consequences), you roll a d20 and add your skill modifiers. You can be flustered and do worse than your passive skill due to distractions and concern. Reliable talent allows 'under pressure' rolls to have a floor of 10 (you're cool under pressure).</p><p></p><p>Sometimes you need to do a group check. Common examples are stealth and perception. Everybody is engaged in the activity at the same time. Someone that is good at the skill can use it passively (requiring no action) and then use an appropriate action to 'help' a fellow PC. That assisted ally gains advantage, but the good PC is risking that their skill may not be enough. If they're good enough, that is little risk. If they're not as good as they think or the challenge is harder than expected, they could be the weak link. When you use an action to assist you must roll a skill check on the appropriate skill and get at least A 15 to effectively assist. A roll under 10 results in no assistance, but you can share the blame for a failed skill check if the DM wants to help tell the story that way. You can only assist one ally at a time and only on one skill.</p><p></p><p>Example:</p><p></p><p>Alpha, Beta and Gamma are adventuring buddies. Alpha is a stealthy rogue, Beta is a semi-stealthy wizard, and Gamma is a clumsy fighter in full plate. They are about to enter a goblin lair sneakily. No goblins are seen... yet.</p><p></p><p>Alpha has a stealth of +9. He is happy to take a passive result of 19 as they approach, allowing him to assist Gamma ... He uses a bonus action to dash, uses his standard action to assist Gamma (rolling a 19 result - a successful assist), and moves ahead with a stealth result of 19.</p><p></p><p>Beta has a stealth score of +3. He could go for a passive 13, or roll a d20 with a minimum score of 13 (but possibly as high as 23) ... but doing so will require an action which will slow him down. Knowing that Gamma has to go slow, he elects to roll a d20 and gets a 6... but we treat that as a 10 and he stays at 13. </p><p></p><p>Gamma has a stealth score of -1 and disadvantage due to his armor ... meaning a passive score of 4 (10 -1 -5) normally - but with advantage being given from Alpha's help he is back to -9 (advantage and disadvantage cancel out). That is unlikely to be stealthy, so he elects to roll and hopes for a result above 10 on the dies to improve his results. He gets a 16 for a net result of 15. </p><p></p><p>As they approach the cave they pass a well hidden goblin that is 'on watch'... meaning that he is playing a game with some rocks. He doesn't want to be caught by his tribe neglecting his duty, so he is hiding and managed a 22 result.</p><p></p><p>As none of the PCs are electing to use an action to use their perception skills, we use their passive skills and they all are insufficient to spot the goblin.</p><p></p><p>The goblin used an action to hide, but once hidden he doesn't need to continue using actions to hide himself. However, he is actively playing a game, so he is not using his action to perceive and thus we turn to his passive perception which - as is typical of his race - is a 9. He does not spot the PCs. They pass by him, with both sides unaware of the existence of the others. Had the goblin been standing at attention and been known to be watching the PCs, they'd all have needed to roll checks... although Alpha could have hidden on one round and then assisted Gamma on another. However, the goblin might be determined by the DM to be either passively watching (passive perception 9) or actively watching (d20-1 roll). </p><p></p><p>Once inside the caves the PCs pass by an ancient idol. A knowledge check of 15 in history, arcana or religion will reveal this to be an idol depicting the God of Magic. If the PCs walk by it without taking any time to reflect, we see if any of them have an appropriate passive knowledge of 15 in any of those skills - and the wizard does! The DM tells him that his is an idol of Maggity McMagic, the God of Magic. The wizard asks what he knows about this God of Magic. The wizard uses an action to think about it and rolls a d20... getting a 14. This improves upon his passive knowledge, changing the 15 to a 19... but that is not enough to glean anything else significant. The DM offers a few meaningless tidbits about the God, but nothing useful.</p><p></p><p>They move in further and encounter a wide crevice that is 40 feet deep that is typically crossed with a bridge that is currently stored on the opposite side. Two goblins guard it, but the PCs get the jump on them and a sleep spell is delivered before they act. ZZZZZZzzzzzzz........</p><p></p><p>The PCs need to move quickly and Gamma decides to jump the crevice with his 18 strength and +8 athletics. This is a running long jump so he can clear 18 feet automatically... but the crevice is 20' wide. The DM decides that jumping 2 extra feet is a medium difficulty task - DC 15. If there were no time pressure, or if the distance fallen a failed check would result in would be insignificant he could automatically make this check by using a passive result of 18. However, this is a situation in which he needs to roll due to the pressure. Alpha wants to help him, but rolls a 14 total athletics check and fails so Gamma is on his own. He rolls a 6. 6 +8 is 14... meaning he just fails to reach the other side. The DM determines his lower body hits the far wall and gives him a dex save to catch the lip ... which he fails... and falls into the crevice... loudy... alerting the Froghemoth hiding at the bottom that eats him.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 7447481, member: 2629"] My skill system: If you do not use an action, your skill check is 10+your skill. No roll. +/- 5 for advantage/disadvantage. (Yes, I know about reliable talent...wait). If you use an action, reaction or bonus action when using a skill (as appropriate), you roll a d20 and add your modifier - but 10 is generally treated as the minimum roll. You're always going to be as good as at least your passive roll ... unless you're under pressure. If you are under pressure (which is generally any situation where time is short or failure has immediate significant consequences), you roll a d20 and add your skill modifiers. You can be flustered and do worse than your passive skill due to distractions and concern. Reliable talent allows 'under pressure' rolls to have a floor of 10 (you're cool under pressure). Sometimes you need to do a group check. Common examples are stealth and perception. Everybody is engaged in the activity at the same time. Someone that is good at the skill can use it passively (requiring no action) and then use an appropriate action to 'help' a fellow PC. That assisted ally gains advantage, but the good PC is risking that their skill may not be enough. If they're good enough, that is little risk. If they're not as good as they think or the challenge is harder than expected, they could be the weak link. When you use an action to assist you must roll a skill check on the appropriate skill and get at least A 15 to effectively assist. A roll under 10 results in no assistance, but you can share the blame for a failed skill check if the DM wants to help tell the story that way. You can only assist one ally at a time and only on one skill. Example: Alpha, Beta and Gamma are adventuring buddies. Alpha is a stealthy rogue, Beta is a semi-stealthy wizard, and Gamma is a clumsy fighter in full plate. They are about to enter a goblin lair sneakily. No goblins are seen... yet. Alpha has a stealth of +9. He is happy to take a passive result of 19 as they approach, allowing him to assist Gamma ... He uses a bonus action to dash, uses his standard action to assist Gamma (rolling a 19 result - a successful assist), and moves ahead with a stealth result of 19. Beta has a stealth score of +3. He could go for a passive 13, or roll a d20 with a minimum score of 13 (but possibly as high as 23) ... but doing so will require an action which will slow him down. Knowing that Gamma has to go slow, he elects to roll a d20 and gets a 6... but we treat that as a 10 and he stays at 13. Gamma has a stealth score of -1 and disadvantage due to his armor ... meaning a passive score of 4 (10 -1 -5) normally - but with advantage being given from Alpha's help he is back to -9 (advantage and disadvantage cancel out). That is unlikely to be stealthy, so he elects to roll and hopes for a result above 10 on the dies to improve his results. He gets a 16 for a net result of 15. As they approach the cave they pass a well hidden goblin that is 'on watch'... meaning that he is playing a game with some rocks. He doesn't want to be caught by his tribe neglecting his duty, so he is hiding and managed a 22 result. As none of the PCs are electing to use an action to use their perception skills, we use their passive skills and they all are insufficient to spot the goblin. The goblin used an action to hide, but once hidden he doesn't need to continue using actions to hide himself. However, he is actively playing a game, so he is not using his action to perceive and thus we turn to his passive perception which - as is typical of his race - is a 9. He does not spot the PCs. They pass by him, with both sides unaware of the existence of the others. Had the goblin been standing at attention and been known to be watching the PCs, they'd all have needed to roll checks... although Alpha could have hidden on one round and then assisted Gamma on another. However, the goblin might be determined by the DM to be either passively watching (passive perception 9) or actively watching (d20-1 roll). Once inside the caves the PCs pass by an ancient idol. A knowledge check of 15 in history, arcana or religion will reveal this to be an idol depicting the God of Magic. If the PCs walk by it without taking any time to reflect, we see if any of them have an appropriate passive knowledge of 15 in any of those skills - and the wizard does! The DM tells him that his is an idol of Maggity McMagic, the God of Magic. The wizard asks what he knows about this God of Magic. The wizard uses an action to think about it and rolls a d20... getting a 14. This improves upon his passive knowledge, changing the 15 to a 19... but that is not enough to glean anything else significant. The DM offers a few meaningless tidbits about the God, but nothing useful. They move in further and encounter a wide crevice that is 40 feet deep that is typically crossed with a bridge that is currently stored on the opposite side. Two goblins guard it, but the PCs get the jump on them and a sleep spell is delivered before they act. ZZZZZZzzzzzzz........ The PCs need to move quickly and Gamma decides to jump the crevice with his 18 strength and +8 athletics. This is a running long jump so he can clear 18 feet automatically... but the crevice is 20' wide. The DM decides that jumping 2 extra feet is a medium difficulty task - DC 15. If there were no time pressure, or if the distance fallen a failed check would result in would be insignificant he could automatically make this check by using a passive result of 18. However, this is a situation in which he needs to roll due to the pressure. Alpha wants to help him, but rolls a 14 total athletics check and fails so Gamma is on his own. He rolls a 6. 6 +8 is 14... meaning he just fails to reach the other side. The DM determines his lower body hits the far wall and gives him a dex save to catch the lip ... which he fails... and falls into the crevice... loudy... alerting the Froghemoth hiding at the bottom that eats him. [/QUOTE]
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