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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7449216" data-attributes="member: 6919838">It wasnt an exact quote... Easy references about 50% tlfor 10 stat and no trsinging then the marxh the dc tree and degree up as i describe. Mechanically 45% vs usually when one includes getting advantage from help etc to me seems appropriate, thats why i used it.I have found those standards for assigning consisten dcs to work well. Ymmv.I would be more questioning the linking of terms "career thief" which implies to me not being a rookie with level 1 rogue.As for the invisibility of training, i guess its a matter of how micro-sighted one wants to be. I tend to expect a rookie thief to be at least +4 (2 prof plus 2 dex) than an untrained (no prof, no dex) as both ability and proficiency show ways of training or aptitude. +4 does show up often enough to be visible, over time, in my experience.Of course that may vary from game to game, perspective to perspective but are you realky ssying that over the course of your campaigns using 5e no difference shows between those good at something and those not?I mean, pretty much the same mechancs apply to combat checks - prof + ability vs dc... Are your fighters not seen as better than your wizards at srabby stabby stuff too?</blockquote>