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Why doesn't the help action have more limits and down sides?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7449509" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>hmm... longer reply got snagged by the net and drowned...</p><p></p><p>high points</p><p></p><p>Re master assassin first level PCs requirements </p><p>sorry but the PHB allows start at higher levels. it even gives guidelines of sorts. if you have a problem with a character concept not meshing with level at start - thats between you and your Gm/deciders.</p><p></p><p>Re tolls success failure damage combat etc...</p><p>Tools can be a source of disadvantage if they are not available - just like weapon proficiency can. They can even be a case for auto-failure. That seems to be in the same avenue as how weapon proficiencies work.</p><p></p><p>You seem hung up on the skills-pass/fail vs weapons -pass/fail and then damage. </p><p></p><p>IF that is a problem for you, then i suggest investing in a DMG where a number of options for more robust/complicated skill options are presented. There are even critical success and fail as well as degrees of failure, success at cost etc. if these explicitly dont give you a parity you like, they can at least serve as guidelines for house rules to suit your specific needs or preferences.</p><p></p><p>As for chance of failure, the DMg also provides several "auto-success" options for skills including ones which would cover the case of very low DC checks. Some of them seem very similar to how the one for jumping is handled - a basic level of success based on attribute score and the skill roll option if you need higher.</p><p></p><p>Jump not being part of the skill system - "fixed based on your strength score" - see the athletics skill. Like the DMG options for auto-success - they have a defined minimum and a skill check for more process setup for jumps. </p><p></p><p>As for the outlook about counting failures for thosewho try and only those skilled trying...</p><p></p><p>i doubt anyone would count me as a great skater just because i have never failed a triple axle jump. perhaps a perspective of looking at what they do, not what they never try is a better approach. Your gnome isn't a better greatweapon fighter than the orc because the orc has missed with his greataxe and the gnome has never swung one, right?</p><p></p><p>perhaps just look at it this way - choosing to not even try is failure too.</p><p></p><p>As for your game being indistinguishable on the whole from a 50/50 on attempt, that is again i have to say coming from your GM and players interactions. In my games, even by tier-2 the success rate climb noticably even besides the things no longer a bother at all. perhaps a dialog with your Gm and looking at some of the DMG options for auto-success could help get to a place you both like better - but if it is his choice to emulate other systems where DC automatically scale upward to keep the checks at 50/50 over the long haul - thats more a case of different preferences.</p><p></p><p>Either way, its not 5e base rules or even options really that cause that 50/50 outcome - from my experience. They certainly *allow* the Gm to make it so, but they dont require it or even endorse it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7449509, member: 6919838"] hmm... longer reply got snagged by the net and drowned... high points Re master assassin first level PCs requirements sorry but the PHB allows start at higher levels. it even gives guidelines of sorts. if you have a problem with a character concept not meshing with level at start - thats between you and your Gm/deciders. Re tolls success failure damage combat etc... Tools can be a source of disadvantage if they are not available - just like weapon proficiency can. They can even be a case for auto-failure. That seems to be in the same avenue as how weapon proficiencies work. You seem hung up on the skills-pass/fail vs weapons -pass/fail and then damage. IF that is a problem for you, then i suggest investing in a DMG where a number of options for more robust/complicated skill options are presented. There are even critical success and fail as well as degrees of failure, success at cost etc. if these explicitly dont give you a parity you like, they can at least serve as guidelines for house rules to suit your specific needs or preferences. As for chance of failure, the DMg also provides several "auto-success" options for skills including ones which would cover the case of very low DC checks. Some of them seem very similar to how the one for jumping is handled - a basic level of success based on attribute score and the skill roll option if you need higher. Jump not being part of the skill system - "fixed based on your strength score" - see the athletics skill. Like the DMG options for auto-success - they have a defined minimum and a skill check for more process setup for jumps. As for the outlook about counting failures for thosewho try and only those skilled trying... i doubt anyone would count me as a great skater just because i have never failed a triple axle jump. perhaps a perspective of looking at what they do, not what they never try is a better approach. Your gnome isn't a better greatweapon fighter than the orc because the orc has missed with his greataxe and the gnome has never swung one, right? perhaps just look at it this way - choosing to not even try is failure too. As for your game being indistinguishable on the whole from a 50/50 on attempt, that is again i have to say coming from your GM and players interactions. In my games, even by tier-2 the success rate climb noticably even besides the things no longer a bother at all. perhaps a dialog with your Gm and looking at some of the DMG options for auto-success could help get to a place you both like better - but if it is his choice to emulate other systems where DC automatically scale upward to keep the checks at 50/50 over the long haul - thats more a case of different preferences. Either way, its not 5e base rules or even options really that cause that 50/50 outcome - from my experience. They certainly *allow* the Gm to make it so, but they dont require it or even endorse it. [/QUOTE]
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