Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why don't everything scale by proficiency bonus?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 7633042" data-attributes="member: 6993955"><p>I feel like the underlying issue that's causing a lot of static here is that some people want to see their character's skills and whatnot improve, just not at the cost of their ability to optimize their core class stats and feat tree. As mentioned there are a number of ways already in the rules to improve skill levels and generally broaden a characters base. Are those additional skills going to be used as often as a fighter's melee attack or a Warlock's Eldritch Blast? Obviously not, but that's the choice - broad or deep. I'm a min-maxer at heart, and I feel the sting of passing on that 20 or even delaying it, but if you really think your character needs skills X and Y there are ways to acquire them already. One feat gets you three skills, which should cover most characters needs to cover what they feel they are missing.</p><p></p><p>We all know this, so why did I bring this up? It's about changing as little as possible to shunt the game in the direction you want. The bigger the hack the larger the chances of imbalance and unintended consequence. I'm not afraid to implement big hacks to the rules, nor would I counsel someone else not to, but they are a lot of work. So if the only issue is skill access, then my first thought would be to do some gentle surgery rather than laying about me with my rules chainsaw. If we call access to one skill the equivalent of 1/3 of a feat (a weak feat admittedly) than gives us a reference point. So how about this:</p><p></p><p><strong>Limited Proficiency</strong>: <em>At every ASI step a character also gains skills in addition to the +2 stat bonus. They may choose to add proficiency in a class skill, or limited proficiency in a non-class skill. Limited proficiency may be taken multiple times and stacks. The first limited proficiency grants a character +2 in that skill, which replaces the character's level based proficiency modifier. The second limited proficiency modifier grants normal proficiency, and the character may now use his level-based proficiency modifier with that skill. A third selection of limited proficiency grants an additional +2 modifier to skills checks that does stack with the characters general proficiency modifier. Any skill taken during character creation is considered equivalent to two selections of limited proficiency, and thus can benefit from a third limited proficiency to grant the additional +2 bonus.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Note that under this rule, classes that have more than 5 ASI advances also get more than 5 limited proficiency selections.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>I like this because it's giving out essentially half a skill as a straight bonus that applies evenly across the classes (fighter and rogue aside). It's the equivalent of something like 1/6th of a feat, so shouldn't be too game changing, and also provides a mechanic for skill specialization outside the aegis of the Expertise special rule, and also isn't as effective as Expertise, so we aren't stepping directly on a class ability (plus the rogue and bard have access anyway). Characters gain skills as they level, which should make that half of the crowd here happy, but we've avoided general leveling bonuses, which should make everyone else happy. Personally, I like this enough that I'm going to start using it, so at the very least, thanks all for helping me work out a solid hack for my own game.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fenris-77, post: 7633042, member: 6993955"] I feel like the underlying issue that's causing a lot of static here is that some people want to see their character's skills and whatnot improve, just not at the cost of their ability to optimize their core class stats and feat tree. As mentioned there are a number of ways already in the rules to improve skill levels and generally broaden a characters base. Are those additional skills going to be used as often as a fighter's melee attack or a Warlock's Eldritch Blast? Obviously not, but that's the choice - broad or deep. I'm a min-maxer at heart, and I feel the sting of passing on that 20 or even delaying it, but if you really think your character needs skills X and Y there are ways to acquire them already. One feat gets you three skills, which should cover most characters needs to cover what they feel they are missing. We all know this, so why did I bring this up? It's about changing as little as possible to shunt the game in the direction you want. The bigger the hack the larger the chances of imbalance and unintended consequence. I'm not afraid to implement big hacks to the rules, nor would I counsel someone else not to, but they are a lot of work. So if the only issue is skill access, then my first thought would be to do some gentle surgery rather than laying about me with my rules chainsaw. If we call access to one skill the equivalent of 1/3 of a feat (a weak feat admittedly) than gives us a reference point. So how about this: [B]Limited Proficiency[/B]: [I]At every ASI step a character also gains skills in addition to the +2 stat bonus. They may choose to add proficiency in a class skill, or limited proficiency in a non-class skill. Limited proficiency may be taken multiple times and stacks. The first limited proficiency grants a character +2 in that skill, which replaces the character's level based proficiency modifier. The second limited proficiency modifier grants normal proficiency, and the character may now use his level-based proficiency modifier with that skill. A third selection of limited proficiency grants an additional +2 modifier to skills checks that does stack with the characters general proficiency modifier. Any skill taken during character creation is considered equivalent to two selections of limited proficiency, and thus can benefit from a third limited proficiency to grant the additional +2 bonus. Note that under this rule, classes that have more than 5 ASI advances also get more than 5 limited proficiency selections. [/I] I like this because it's giving out essentially half a skill as a straight bonus that applies evenly across the classes (fighter and rogue aside). It's the equivalent of something like 1/6th of a feat, so shouldn't be too game changing, and also provides a mechanic for skill specialization outside the aegis of the Expertise special rule, and also isn't as effective as Expertise, so we aren't stepping directly on a class ability (plus the rogue and bard have access anyway). Characters gain skills as they level, which should make that half of the crowd here happy, but we've avoided general leveling bonuses, which should make everyone else happy. Personally, I like this enough that I'm going to start using it, so at the very least, thanks all for helping me work out a solid hack for my own game.:cool: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why don't everything scale by proficiency bonus?
Top