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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8374232" data-attributes="member: 29398">I didn't say the mistake started with 5e...More generally, when something's broken (in this case, exploration gets too easily negated) it's often informative to dig in and find out some root causes; which surprisingly often rest in some restriction from older editions having been removed or nerfed in newer.&nbsp; Two perfect examples are the spells Teleport and Polymorph (Other): they were fine in 1e when the caster (and-or target) had to weight he benefits against the risks, but once 3e removed the risks both became broken as hell.Here, the root cause has two parts: one, the existence of certain spells, as you've pointed out, which has always been an issue; and two, the ease with which those spells can be acquired, which hasn't.While doing so might be wise, I can't recall ever seeing a character do this. (though we list waterskin and wineskin separately, and many have both, so functionally the same I suppose)This very neatly raises two big issues at once.First - and probably beyond the scope of this discussion - the more I see of 5e cantrips the more I'm concluding that they are, in general, way overpowered for simple throwaway spells.Second, 5e is way too nice to its characters' equipment.&nbsp; I mean, seriously: I could fireball your PC into the middle of next Tuesday, leaving it no more than a smoking pile of ash and charred bones on the floor, yet by RAW the waterskin on your belt would still be in perfect condition, as would be the belt; because 5e - and, I believe, 4e - doesn't force carried or worn items to make saves when their owner fails one.&nbsp; Which, in the fiction, is ludicrous.It's hard to enforce equipment attrition when the system assumes by default that such cannot happen even in extreme circumstances such as being repeatedly fireballed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8374232, member: 29398"] I didn't say the mistake started with 5e... More generally, when something's broken (in this case, exploration gets too easily negated) it's often informative to dig in and find out some root causes; which surprisingly often rest in some restriction from older editions having been removed or nerfed in newer. Two perfect examples are the spells Teleport and Polymorph (Other): they were fine in 1e when the caster (and-or target) had to weight he benefits against the risks, but once 3e removed the risks both became broken as hell. Here, the root cause has two parts: one, the existence of certain spells, as you've pointed out, which has always been an issue; and two, the ease with which those spells can be acquired, which hasn't. While doing so might be wise, I can't recall ever seeing a character do this. (though we list waterskin and wineskin separately, and many have both, so functionally the same I suppose) This very neatly raises two big issues at once. First - and probably beyond the scope of this discussion - the more I see of 5e cantrips the more I'm concluding that they are, in general, way overpowered for simple throwaway spells. Second, 5e is way too nice to its characters' equipment. I mean, seriously: I could fireball your PC into the middle of next Tuesday, leaving it no more than a smoking pile of ash and charred bones on the floor, yet by RAW the waterskin on your belt would still be in perfect condition, as would be the belt; because 5e - and, I believe, 4e - doesn't force carried or worn items to make saves when their owner fails one. Which, in the fiction, is ludicrous. It's hard to enforce equipment attrition when the system assumes by default that such cannot happen even in extreme circumstances such as being repeatedly fireballed. [/QUOTE]

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