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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8379267" data-attributes="member: 22779">Just to go back to the Waterdeep to Neverwinter example.  According to this site:  <a href="https://www.aidedd.org/atlas/index.php?map=R&l=1" target="_blank">Forgotten Realms (Faerun, Sword Coast) Interactive Map</a> that's a trip of about 350 miles (it's 330 as the crow flies, and the road follows the route pretty closely.  Now, there are several things I'd bring up before this campaign even started.1.  Why are we traveling overland?  We can travel by water (both Waterdeep and Neverwinter ARE major ports after all) in half the time and a heck of a lot more comfortably.2.  Why in hell would that take 16 sessions?!?!  We're talking 13 days of travel, on a major road with multiple communities along the way.  We cannot get lost.  Heck, we would only be sleeping outside of a town maybe half the time, and that's only looking at the major communities - there are small towns all along that route - it is a major, well maintained trade route after all.3.  How is this even remotely an "exploration"?  We're on a road.  A well maintained, pretty civilized route between two of the largest cities in Faerun. I've seen a lot of counter arguments, but, precious few suggestions.  "Hey, a ranger's abilites bypass many exploration challenges" "Well, place impassible barriers in the way and force the group to deal with them" is not really much of a suggestion.  "Choose to interpret everything in such a way that it screws over anything that you don't personally approve of (every flagstone counts as a separate "object" to be interacted with by an unseen servant for example)" is also spectacularly unuseful.What would I actually want?  Well, to be honest, 4e does do this a lot better than 5e with it's skill challenge mechanics.  I guess what would make me happy would be either of the following two things, or, even better, both:1.  Advice in the DMG that is actually concrete about creating exploration challenges that takes into consideration the abilities that a group can easily have.  Many of the challenges in the DMG  are so easily trivialized by very basic character options.2.  A skill system that is actually more than just simple pass/fail.  One system I recall from a game I used to play (Sufficiently Advanced - an SF game) gave characters a pool of resources to draw upon when attempting something. If you failed, your pool was reduced.  Run out of the resource pool and you can't try to do that thing any more.  So, in D&D terms, I'd base it on your stats.  You want to climb a mountain?  Ok, here's your pool based on your Str score (modified by athletics skill).  Every time you fail, you do not make progress and your pool is reduced.  Fail too many times, or simply give up before you run out of resources, and you have to wait until those resources replenish over time to attempt again.  The system that that game used gave the challenge it's own dice pool and modifiers, so it was always contested rolls to win each attempt.  Deplete the challenge's pool and you succeed.To me, even a very simple system like that would go SO far towards making exploration actually interesting in the game.  Instead of pass/fail rolls or just bypassing the challenge entirely, you have to actually leverage your character resources each time.  Additionally, put it on the player to narrate events.  You know how big the pool of the opposition is.  You know how much you've depleted it.  Tell me how close you are to completion.  Or, conversely, let the DM narrate.  I'm not terribly fussy on that part.  I just like the idea of engaging the player that way.But, as it is?  Exploration is the filler stuff between the things that people actually remember and talk about after the game.  Nobody ever talks about the fifteen thousandth time your rogue has rolled an Investigation check on yet another door to look for traps.  Nobody gives a naughty word.  But, we have to do it, because if we don't - AHA! Gotcha!  You didn't check for traps, so, that trap gets you.  Never minding that I had to screw around with the last thirty doors that weren't trapped and waste all that table time just so I can actually be useful that one time. No thanks.</blockquote>

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