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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8380820" data-attributes="member: 22779">I'm not [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER], but, I'll take a stab here.&nbsp; Hopefully this will move things out of the rut of endlessly kvetching about whether or not there is an issue at all, because, frankly, I'm really tired of that conversation.A challenge, in any pillar, requires the following:1.&nbsp; Actual consequences.&nbsp; If something has no consequences, then it isn't a challenge.&nbsp; A locked box is not, in itself, a challenge.&nbsp; There is zero chance of failing to open that box, presuming you can actually do it of course.&nbsp; The only resource used is time, and that's, by and large, not much of an issue.&nbsp; For example, opening a locked box in a dungeon after you've dispatched the inhabitants isn't a challenge.&nbsp; There is no fail condition.&nbsp; Needing to open that box, right now, is probably a challenge.2.&nbsp; Choices.&nbsp; Real choices.&nbsp; As in, the person choosing actually has enough information to make an informed decision.&nbsp; A T junction in a dungeon with no information about what is in either direction is not a challenge.&nbsp; It's a coin flip and, from the perspective of the players, it makes zero difference which way they go.&nbsp; Now, earlier was mentioned that you could take the safe route which took more time, or the more dangerous route - that's at least a choice.&nbsp; Not really a challenge since it's just pick A or B, but, at least it's a start.3.&nbsp; Engagement of the mechanics of the game.&nbsp; Freeform doesn't count.&nbsp; The reason I don't count freeform stuff is that it is 100% DM dependent and isn't actually part of the game.&nbsp; Earlier was mentioned pushing someone down the stairs as part of combat.&nbsp; Fair enough, there are a number of mechanics - pushing, falling damage - to use to determine success or failure.&nbsp; It's not a case of &quot;Do I convince my DM that I succeed?&quot; which, to me, isn't part of the game.&nbsp; It might be fun, I'm not commenting on that.&nbsp; I'm simply stating that as soon as you are free forming results, then, you're no longer in a game defined challenge.So, to give exploration challenges:&nbsp; Sure, finding that secret door.&nbsp; Scouting.&nbsp; Environmental hazards.&nbsp; These are all exploration challenges.&nbsp; Again, I don't think anyone is claiming that the challenges aren't there.&nbsp; There are challenges there.&nbsp; It's just that the challenges become trivial or easily ignored with little to no cost to the group.&nbsp; [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] pointed to a couple of prime suspects - Leomund's Hut, Darkvision.&nbsp; Both are easily had in the game, and both have incredibly large impacts on exploration.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8380820, member: 22779"] I'm not [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER], but, I'll take a stab here. Hopefully this will move things out of the rut of endlessly kvetching about whether or not there is an issue at all, because, frankly, I'm really tired of that conversation. A challenge, in any pillar, requires the following: 1. Actual consequences. If something has no consequences, then it isn't a challenge. A locked box is not, in itself, a challenge. There is zero chance of failing to open that box, presuming you can actually do it of course. The only resource used is time, and that's, by and large, not much of an issue. For example, opening a locked box in a dungeon after you've dispatched the inhabitants isn't a challenge. There is no fail condition. Needing to open that box,[I] right now[/I], is probably a challenge. 2. Choices. Real choices. As in, the person choosing actually has enough information to make an informed decision. A T junction in a dungeon with no information about what is in either direction is not a challenge. It's a coin flip and, from the perspective of the players, it makes zero difference which way they go. Now, earlier was mentioned that you could take the safe route which took more time, or the more dangerous route - that's at least a choice. Not really a challenge since it's just pick A or B, but, at least it's a start. 3. Engagement of the mechanics of the game. Freeform doesn't count. The reason I don't count freeform stuff is that it is 100% DM dependent and isn't actually part of the game. Earlier was mentioned pushing someone down the stairs as part of combat. Fair enough, there are a number of mechanics - pushing, falling damage - to use to determine success or failure. It's not a case of "Do I convince my DM that I succeed?" which, to me, isn't part of the game. It might be fun, I'm not commenting on that. I'm simply stating that as soon as you are free forming results, then, you're no longer in a game defined challenge. So, to give exploration challenges: Sure, finding that secret door. Scouting. Environmental hazards. These are all exploration challenges. Again, I don't think anyone is claiming that the challenges aren't there. There are challenges there. It's just that the challenges become trivial or easily ignored with little to no cost to the group. [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] pointed to a couple of prime suspects - Leomund's Hut, Darkvision. Both are easily had in the game, and both have incredibly large impacts on exploration. [/QUOTE]

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