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Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar
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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8391960" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>I'm currently on page 80 and closing to the finish line fast. What a journey. An honest and heartfelt thank you to the people who've posted links. Some of them are really wonderful resources.</p><p></p><p>A couple of things I'm seeing. DMs who haven't read the DMG or the PHB is apparently a very real thing. I thought it was a meme and a bad one at that. Players who haven't read much, if anything, beyond the bare essentials of character creation. Not even how abilities and skills work. That's really bizarre to me.</p><p></p><p>Exploration is all about trade offs. If there are no meaningful trade offs to make, then it collapses. This becomes really apparent when the DM refuses to enforce the trade offs the game offers. Time, resources, weight, coins, conversion rates, carrying capacity, encumbrance, spells, components, light, etc. If the DM intentionally ignores all the trade offs and the players therefore think the exploration pillar sucks, that's 100% on the DM for intentionally ignoring all the trade offs. It's like a DM giving the PCs all 18s, infinite money to buy gear and magic items at level 1, ignoring carrying capacity, pitting them against a CR1 creature, and then complaining about how combat sucks. No, combat doesn't suck, you just tipped the scale so drastically in the PCs favor that it was trivialized. Or a Monty Haul game. It's not that magic items suck, it's that the DM chose to make them trivially easy to come by. It's the same with gold. If the DM makes it trivially easy to come by and doesn't enforce things like lifestyle expenses, food & water prices, lodging prices, equipment costs, carrying capacity, encumbrance, etc...then the PCs end up with stacks of coins and nothing to spend it on. The same thing is going on here with a lot of DMs and exploration. The DM is intentionally trivializing exploration, therefore the players think it sucks. If this is called out and the DM refuses to enforce those trade offs, that's them doubling down on intentionally trivializing exploration. That's still not a fault in the game's mechanics, that's the DM ignoring the game then complaining the game sucks.</p><p></p><p>I wanted to touch on a few of the trade offs and restraints listed above. I think they've gotten glossed over or ignored for large chunks of the thread.</p><p></p><p>Time. Time has to matter for exploration to matter. Period. If you refuse to make time matter, then exploration is going to suck. "In a dungeon environment, the adventurers' movement happens on a scale of minutes. It takes them about a minute to creep down a long hallway, another minute to check for traps on the door at the end of the hall, and a good ten minutes to search the chamber beyond for anything interesting or valuable." PHB, p181. Why does that matter? Because the DM should be making wandering monster checks (DMG, p85-7). The dungeon isn't a static place with sectioned off and sealed rooms of monsters standing around waiting for the PCs to bust in an murder them. It's the equivalent to a village or town, but with monsters. They need to sleep, ingest, and excrete. Unless they're particularly nasty creatures, those three activities aren't going to happen in the same place. So they're going to be moving around. Unless they're particularly stupid creatures, they're going to have patrols.</p><p></p><p>The DMG suggests checking at a variety of intervals: one hour, four hours, eight hours, once during the day, once at night. But it also suggests checking when the PCs stop to rest, the PCs go on a long journey, and when the PCs draw attention to themselves. It's only an 18+/d20, so it's not that bad...15% chance. Something like a dungeon should be on the hour (or more frequently). It's a place filled with nasties. Not every wandering monster will necessarily attack on sight, but they could. So sure, you can creep down a hallway stealthily (moving 200ft/min) or you can run down the hallway, making a lot of noise with your metal armor and bags of metal coins clanking against each other (draw attention to themselves, wandering monster check; moving 400ft/min). If you go stealthily, you're eating up time moving slowly which will eventually add up and trigger more wandering monster checks than a party moving at a regular pace (moving 300ft/min). Any combat you have is sure to make a lot of noise (triggering a wandering monster check). Risk-reward. You move slow to possibly avoid detection now (reward), but you're making more wandering monster checks (risk). You move fast to get through the dangerous dungeon quicker (reward), but you're making a lot of noise and drawing a lot of attention (risk, wandering monster checks).</p><p></p><p>Resources, weight, coins, conversion rates, carrying capacity, and encumbrance. They're all related. Tracking gold, food, water, weight, and other resources has to matter for exploration to matter. If you really want these to matter, use the variant encumbrance rules. Again, this is tied back to time. You carry more, you move slower, you trigger more wandering monster checks. Unless a character takes their coins to a banker (or similar), don't let them convert the denominations. Carrying 50 copper pieces is one pound of weight; carrying 50 silver pieces is one pound of weight; carrying 50 gold pieces is one pound of weight. It's a distinction that makes a difference. Sure, you found a pile of coins...but do you have anything to carry it in? Your backpack? Cool. What of the equipment already in your backpack are you going to dump out to fit the coins? Did you buy a sack in town? No, because you couldn't afford one. Yes, you absolutely can try to pick up that chest of coins. The chest weighs 25 lbs...and the coins inside weigh 300 lbs. What's your strength again? How much of your gear or the coins do you want to dump to carry the chest or are you and someone else going to share the load and move slower? Risks and rewards. Enforce activities while traveling. Characters either pay attention (get to add their passive perception to the pool) or they get to do something else. Excepting the ranger, of course. As mentioned, the non-ranger outlander can only forage (reward) by opting to not pay attention (risk).</p><p></p><p>Light. Darkvision and dim light. It's been mentioned a few times, but it's often handwaved away. Don't. If you want exploration to matter, light, light sources, and the differences between bright light and dim light have to matter. Dancing lights provides dim light. Light provides bright light and dim light. DMG, p105, "The light of a torch or lantern helps a character see over a short distance, but other creatures can see that light source from far away. Bright light in an environment of total darkness can be visible for miles, though a clear line of sight over such a distance is rare underground. Even so, adventurers using light sources in a dungeon often attract monsters, just as dungeon features that shed light (from phosphorescent fungi to the glow of magical portals) can draw adventurers' attention." So yes, light and light sources vs darkvision is a trade off. Relying on darkvision gives the characters disadvantage on vision-based Perception checks and they cannot see in color (risk) but they're not using light sources and thereby not obvious to any monsters in the area (reward). That should be enforced, not forgotten.</p><p></p><p>It's all about risks and rewards. If the DM refuses to enforce the risks, then of course the pillar collapses. But that's not a problem with the system. The risks and rewards are in there (poorly organized perhaps, but they are there).</p><p></p><p>So applying the notion of risks and rewards to the most common complaints of abilities that "obviate" the exploration pillar...</p><p></p><p>Outlander. They auto succeed while foraging...but they have to risk being surprised by any wandering monsters. One full surprise round against you in combat is a big deal...and depending on initiative, it might be two rounds of enemy actions before you get to act. Someone will inevitably say "but the alert feat". 1) Feats are optional. 2) If you're using feats, then so what? A player picked +5 initiative and not being surprised instead of something else. That's a trade off they chose to make. Considering some of the other feats out there, I'm glad you picked alert instead of something else. Besides, the rest of the party probably doesn't have the alert feat.</p><p></p><p>Ranger. On 1/8 (2/8 at 6th, 3/8 at 10th) of terrain types they: cannot get lost, aren't slowed by difficult terrain, double forage, and always pays attention. Okay so, one of the 13 classes in the game (trade off) gets those abilities. Okay. So what? Their party cannot get lost. Okay, cool. That's not a big deal. They aren't slowed. Okay, so they get there faster. So what? They double forage? Great. Either food goes to waste, is used to mess with monsters, or is used to keep the retainers, hirelings, or horses and pack animals alive. Mules are medium-sized creatures so need one pound of food and one gallon of water per day to survive. Horses are large-sized creatures so need four pounds of food and four gallons of water per day to survive.</p><p></p><p>Leomund's Tiny Hut. It takes 11 minutes to cast as a ritual. The DMG suggests making a wandering monster check when the PCs stop to rest. It also suggests various other times, once an hour, once every four or once every eight hours. That's anywhere from two to nine wandering monster checks per long rest, depending on circumstances. Nine might make sense in a dungeon but two or three would make more sense in the wilderness. But depending on how close you are to a settlement, it could be more. There might be nasties waiting for the PCs when they wake. Depending on who or what is encountered, that could be quite bad news. Unless it's intentionally hidden or tucked away, it's clearly visible. A monster (that might have friends) now knows exactly where the PCs will be for the next eight hours. So you cannot be attacked while you're resting, but you might attract attention overnight. Sure, I'll take that.</p><p></p><p>Darkvision. It's dim light instead of total darkness so disadvantage on perception checks along with no color vision. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift.</p><p></p><p>Light cantrip. No weight or expense of torches, oil, lanterns, or candles...but your light is a beacon for anything even vaguely nearby. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift.</p><p></p><p>Dancing lights cantrip. No weight or expense of torches, oil, lanterns, or candles...but it's dim light so disadvantage on perception checks...and it's a beacon for anything even vaguely nearby. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift.</p><p></p><p>The trouble comes in when the players refuse to accept the trade off or the risks. Or somehow mistakes the DM treating the world as a living, breathing place for the DM being a jerk. Complaining about the DM ever using color for example. Or complaining about the DM ever having environments that are anything more interesting than static Indiana Jones style flat maps to red line travel across. If you refuse to accept the risks, you give up the rewards. I'd suggest that someone who wants to play a risk-free adventure game doesn't actually want to play an adventure game. If the DM removes all the risks, keeps all the rewards, refuses to acknowledge much less use the inherent trade offs presented in the game, and skips over huge swathes of the exploration pillar...it's not a shock that their players think the exploration pillar sucks. But that's certainly not a fault of the game itself.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8391960, member: 86653"] I'm currently on page 80 and closing to the finish line fast. What a journey. An honest and heartfelt thank you to the people who've posted links. Some of them are really wonderful resources. A couple of things I'm seeing. DMs who haven't read the DMG or the PHB is apparently a very real thing. I thought it was a meme and a bad one at that. Players who haven't read much, if anything, beyond the bare essentials of character creation. Not even how abilities and skills work. That's really bizarre to me. Exploration is all about trade offs. If there are no meaningful trade offs to make, then it collapses. This becomes really apparent when the DM refuses to enforce the trade offs the game offers. Time, resources, weight, coins, conversion rates, carrying capacity, encumbrance, spells, components, light, etc. If the DM intentionally ignores all the trade offs and the players therefore think the exploration pillar sucks, that's 100% on the DM for intentionally ignoring all the trade offs. It's like a DM giving the PCs all 18s, infinite money to buy gear and magic items at level 1, ignoring carrying capacity, pitting them against a CR1 creature, and then complaining about how combat sucks. No, combat doesn't suck, you just tipped the scale so drastically in the PCs favor that it was trivialized. Or a Monty Haul game. It's not that magic items suck, it's that the DM chose to make them trivially easy to come by. It's the same with gold. If the DM makes it trivially easy to come by and doesn't enforce things like lifestyle expenses, food & water prices, lodging prices, equipment costs, carrying capacity, encumbrance, etc...then the PCs end up with stacks of coins and nothing to spend it on. The same thing is going on here with a lot of DMs and exploration. The DM is intentionally trivializing exploration, therefore the players think it sucks. If this is called out and the DM refuses to enforce those trade offs, that's them doubling down on intentionally trivializing exploration. That's still not a fault in the game's mechanics, that's the DM ignoring the game then complaining the game sucks. I wanted to touch on a few of the trade offs and restraints listed above. I think they've gotten glossed over or ignored for large chunks of the thread. Time. Time has to matter for exploration to matter. Period. If you refuse to make time matter, then exploration is going to suck. "In a dungeon environment, the adventurers' movement happens on a scale of minutes. It takes them about a minute to creep down a long hallway, another minute to check for traps on the door at the end of the hall, and a good ten minutes to search the chamber beyond for anything interesting or valuable." PHB, p181. Why does that matter? Because the DM should be making wandering monster checks (DMG, p85-7). The dungeon isn't a static place with sectioned off and sealed rooms of monsters standing around waiting for the PCs to bust in an murder them. It's the equivalent to a village or town, but with monsters. They need to sleep, ingest, and excrete. Unless they're particularly nasty creatures, those three activities aren't going to happen in the same place. So they're going to be moving around. Unless they're particularly stupid creatures, they're going to have patrols. The DMG suggests checking at a variety of intervals: one hour, four hours, eight hours, once during the day, once at night. But it also suggests checking when the PCs stop to rest, the PCs go on a long journey, and when the PCs draw attention to themselves. It's only an 18+/d20, so it's not that bad...15% chance. Something like a dungeon should be on the hour (or more frequently). It's a place filled with nasties. Not every wandering monster will necessarily attack on sight, but they could. So sure, you can creep down a hallway stealthily (moving 200ft/min) or you can run down the hallway, making a lot of noise with your metal armor and bags of metal coins clanking against each other (draw attention to themselves, wandering monster check; moving 400ft/min). If you go stealthily, you're eating up time moving slowly which will eventually add up and trigger more wandering monster checks than a party moving at a regular pace (moving 300ft/min). Any combat you have is sure to make a lot of noise (triggering a wandering monster check). Risk-reward. You move slow to possibly avoid detection now (reward), but you're making more wandering monster checks (risk). You move fast to get through the dangerous dungeon quicker (reward), but you're making a lot of noise and drawing a lot of attention (risk, wandering monster checks). Resources, weight, coins, conversion rates, carrying capacity, and encumbrance. They're all related. Tracking gold, food, water, weight, and other resources has to matter for exploration to matter. If you really want these to matter, use the variant encumbrance rules. Again, this is tied back to time. You carry more, you move slower, you trigger more wandering monster checks. Unless a character takes their coins to a banker (or similar), don't let them convert the denominations. Carrying 50 copper pieces is one pound of weight; carrying 50 silver pieces is one pound of weight; carrying 50 gold pieces is one pound of weight. It's a distinction that makes a difference. Sure, you found a pile of coins...but do you have anything to carry it in? Your backpack? Cool. What of the equipment already in your backpack are you going to dump out to fit the coins? Did you buy a sack in town? No, because you couldn't afford one. Yes, you absolutely can try to pick up that chest of coins. The chest weighs 25 lbs...and the coins inside weigh 300 lbs. What's your strength again? How much of your gear or the coins do you want to dump to carry the chest or are you and someone else going to share the load and move slower? Risks and rewards. Enforce activities while traveling. Characters either pay attention (get to add their passive perception to the pool) or they get to do something else. Excepting the ranger, of course. As mentioned, the non-ranger outlander can only forage (reward) by opting to not pay attention (risk). Light. Darkvision and dim light. It's been mentioned a few times, but it's often handwaved away. Don't. If you want exploration to matter, light, light sources, and the differences between bright light and dim light have to matter. Dancing lights provides dim light. Light provides bright light and dim light. DMG, p105, "The light of a torch or lantern helps a character see over a short distance, but other creatures can see that light source from far away. Bright light in an environment of total darkness can be visible for miles, though a clear line of sight over such a distance is rare underground. Even so, adventurers using light sources in a dungeon often attract monsters, just as dungeon features that shed light (from phosphorescent fungi to the glow of magical portals) can draw adventurers' attention." So yes, light and light sources vs darkvision is a trade off. Relying on darkvision gives the characters disadvantage on vision-based Perception checks and they cannot see in color (risk) but they're not using light sources and thereby not obvious to any monsters in the area (reward). That should be enforced, not forgotten. It's all about risks and rewards. If the DM refuses to enforce the risks, then of course the pillar collapses. But that's not a problem with the system. The risks and rewards are in there (poorly organized perhaps, but they are there). So applying the notion of risks and rewards to the most common complaints of abilities that "obviate" the exploration pillar... Outlander. They auto succeed while foraging...but they have to risk being surprised by any wandering monsters. One full surprise round against you in combat is a big deal...and depending on initiative, it might be two rounds of enemy actions before you get to act. Someone will inevitably say "but the alert feat". 1) Feats are optional. 2) If you're using feats, then so what? A player picked +5 initiative and not being surprised instead of something else. That's a trade off they chose to make. Considering some of the other feats out there, I'm glad you picked alert instead of something else. Besides, the rest of the party probably doesn't have the alert feat. Ranger. On 1/8 (2/8 at 6th, 3/8 at 10th) of terrain types they: cannot get lost, aren't slowed by difficult terrain, double forage, and always pays attention. Okay so, one of the 13 classes in the game (trade off) gets those abilities. Okay. So what? Their party cannot get lost. Okay, cool. That's not a big deal. They aren't slowed. Okay, so they get there faster. So what? They double forage? Great. Either food goes to waste, is used to mess with monsters, or is used to keep the retainers, hirelings, or horses and pack animals alive. Mules are medium-sized creatures so need one pound of food and one gallon of water per day to survive. Horses are large-sized creatures so need four pounds of food and four gallons of water per day to survive. Leomund's Tiny Hut. It takes 11 minutes to cast as a ritual. The DMG suggests making a wandering monster check when the PCs stop to rest. It also suggests various other times, once an hour, once every four or once every eight hours. That's anywhere from two to nine wandering monster checks per long rest, depending on circumstances. Nine might make sense in a dungeon but two or three would make more sense in the wilderness. But depending on how close you are to a settlement, it could be more. There might be nasties waiting for the PCs when they wake. Depending on who or what is encountered, that could be quite bad news. Unless it's intentionally hidden or tucked away, it's clearly visible. A monster (that might have friends) now knows exactly where the PCs will be for the next eight hours. So you cannot be attacked while you're resting, but you might attract attention overnight. Sure, I'll take that. Darkvision. It's dim light instead of total darkness so disadvantage on perception checks along with no color vision. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift. Light cantrip. No weight or expense of torches, oil, lanterns, or candles...but your light is a beacon for anything even vaguely nearby. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift. Dancing lights cantrip. No weight or expense of torches, oil, lanterns, or candles...but it's dim light so disadvantage on perception checks...and it's a beacon for anything even vaguely nearby. Sure, I'll take that. Thank you for the gift. The trouble comes in when the players refuse to accept the trade off or the risks. Or somehow mistakes the DM treating the world as a living, breathing place for the DM being a jerk. Complaining about the DM ever using color for example. Or complaining about the DM ever having environments that are anything more interesting than static Indiana Jones style flat maps to red line travel across. If you refuse to accept the risks, you give up the rewards. I'd suggest that someone who wants to play a risk-free adventure game doesn't actually want to play an adventure game. If the DM removes all the risks, keeps all the rewards, refuses to acknowledge much less use the inherent trade offs presented in the game, and skips over huge swathes of the exploration pillar...it's not a shock that their players think the exploration pillar sucks. But that's certainly not a fault of the game itself. [/QUOTE]
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