Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7147755" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'd say you are right about Lawful Evil groups attracting Neutral and Chaotic individuals, but the devil is in the details. Nazi's didn't kill people for no reason. They believed in racial superiority and the stated goal of the Third Reich was to put the entire world under their rule (which was the best rule because racial superiority) to prevent future wars and conflicts and lead to a glorious future. Evil and wrong, yes, but the leadership had a goal beyond "murder as many people as possible"The Mafia is even more defensible from that perspective. They are business people. Sure, you can hire people who like to cause pain and suffering and like to murder people, but if you murdering people causes problems for the family, you get axed. They care about profits first and foremost and if they can do so without killing and maiming people then they will. You can see rational people following those paths, that's why a lot of literature has mobsters or sometimes even Nazi's (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure) as characters who help the hero. They aren't good or nice people, but they do things that benefit themselves, however a church of murder for the sake of murder... it doesn't work. The closest you can get is making your god more powerful and what does making the Mad god of Lies and suffering more powerful net you, more suffering? I guess the higher-ups could be taking advantage of the god to improve their own power and not because they are true believers but it begins to get a weird set up. And it isn't difficult to worship the gods we're talking about? I mean, you aren't going to go to Sunday Brunch at the house of the guy who worships the god of killing people are you? Or the God of causing other people suffering? How about the guy who worships the God of Poisoners? These gods are Evil, most places reject them and hunt them down. Worshipping Bhaal seems just as evil and bad as following Bel or Mephistophles.On to the point about power though, that is not exactly the case is it?The MM lists Cultist Fanatics, who would be the standard leaders for Demon Cults, as having cleric spells. And Volo's lists Fiend Pact Warlocks as people who may associate with Fiendish Cults, while giving them completely different stats. I'll admit, it is weak evidence, and I don't have much in the way of old adventures to look up NPCs in, but aren't there a lot of "Cult Leaders" for demonic or GOO beings that ended up using cleric stats? The separation tends to be more a construct for Player Characters than one for saying that Demon Lords and Archdevils can't imitate divine powers. After all, we know from Unearthed Arcana that Bel has Hellknights which are Paladins of Conquest, the lines are a bit fuzzy. As to being able to enter the mortal world freely... they don't actually do that very often, and how can Asmodeus approach someone to offer a pact of power if he couldn't send a sliver of himself into the world to tempt them? Personally? Strengthening the restrictions on beings like gods to enter the mortal realms is a very very good thing, especially at my table. I've got one player who loves to try and call on his deity to help him all the time. And I mean directly help him. Help him kill this thing by showing up and killing it, help him find this item by showing up and handing it to him, Help him solve this puzzle by showing up and telling him the answer, ect. He chose an Aasimaar Zealot barbarian, so as a celestial blooded figure with divine power sent on a mission he feels they should leverage all their power to help him. "No, they aren't going to" was met with arguments. So, slowly he learned about the veil and the contract that prevents the Divine from touching the world directly. So it was "No, they can't, your power can't pierce the veil separating the worlds to allow them to act". He still didn't like it, and tried to argue around it, but with a solid reason that kept his pride in check, I was able to move on much more smoothly. He's a bit of a pain at times, but he's a real good friend, and a decent player when he plays the game instead of trying to be the main character of a superhero story. Reading back over this, I seem to be rambling more than usual. Time for bed!</blockquote>

Verification