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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7148280" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>If you follow the tangent back you’ll find Ilbranteloth started talking about the Wall, forced polytheism came up, and then people started talking about how most conflicts in the realms are still Religious conflicts. </p><p></p><p>Except there is no “religious conflict” between the gods of good, it makes no sense. There is political conflict between them and there is competition, but it’s like the family fighting over the pumpkin pie during Thanksgiving. Everyone wants the bigger slices, but you don’t get into a fistfight if someone else gets more than you.</p><p></p><p>Now, the Evil gods are in conflict, but that’s where my narrative concerns come into play. They don’t have a story purpose that isn’t covered by the other forces, and the limits on their power seem to not be enforced by the mechanics of the game. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Then, as [MENTION=7706]SkidAce[/MENTION] said, why do the Demon Lords and Archdevils still exist? Why is Orcus still a threat and creating undead if Kelemvor could just smash him and his kingdom to pieces? </p><p></p><p>There needs to be a reason beyond “They just don’t feel like it” or the world falls apart and the gods are cast in an even worse light than they already are. </p><p></p><p>Actually, scratch that, why doesn’t Lolth control the Abyss then? OR Tiamat the Nine Hells? They both reside in those realms and are both goddesses, if they are so much more powerful than the other denizens of those realms then why haven’t they taken control?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I seem to be phrasing things poorly, because your example of NATO is exactly what I’m talking about. Despite the fact that we Americans are clearly superior to the British (I kid, I kid) no one on either side of the pond is going to say America and Britain are “in conflict” on a regular basis. </p><p></p><p>That’s why I disagreed with the sentiment that most of the major conflicts in the Realms are based on Religion. Over half the religious forces in the Realms are not in conflict, competition maybe, but not conflict. </p><p></p><p>They are in Conflict with the Evil Gods, but the Evil gods are this weird thing, where other than saying “I couldn’t have an evil cleric if I didn’t have an evil god because Asmodeus can’t grant clerical abilities to his cultists” they overlap quite majorly with the Demons and Devils. Heck, aren’t quite a few Evil Gods like Tiamat and Lolth denizens of the Hells and the Abyss respectively? Lolth even has though Yocochol demons (the yellow slime looking ones) in the MM that are specifically demons that she made, and her priestesses sometimes sleep with demons to make those Draegoloth things, but we must draw a distinct difference between the two groups. </p><p></p><p>Essentially, I can see Conflict between the good gods and the evil gods, but the evil gods and the demons and devils all fill the exact same narrative niche, and I don’t know why we can’t just make the two groups synonymous. Mephistopheles is perhaps slightly weaker than Torm, but if the two got into a fight it would be a contest Mephistopheles could potentially win, even if the odds are incredibly low. And this doesn’t change the power structure of the world as much as it just tidies things up and makes it clear how dangerous these beings are, then we don’t need a god of murder, we’ve got plenty of foul monstrous things to advocate murder and assassination without it. </p><p></p><p>The only god I see working as an evil god is Bane, because Tyranny and iron-fisted rule is something that can be made somewhat neutral in terms of LAW and people could logically go out and try and convert people by talking about unity and the rule of law, whereas advocating for Bhaal sounds more like “And after you murder people, you go and murder more people” which isn’t going to attract a lot of followers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7148280, member: 6801228"] If you follow the tangent back you’ll find Ilbranteloth started talking about the Wall, forced polytheism came up, and then people started talking about how most conflicts in the realms are still Religious conflicts. Except there is no “religious conflict” between the gods of good, it makes no sense. There is political conflict between them and there is competition, but it’s like the family fighting over the pumpkin pie during Thanksgiving. Everyone wants the bigger slices, but you don’t get into a fistfight if someone else gets more than you. Now, the Evil gods are in conflict, but that’s where my narrative concerns come into play. They don’t have a story purpose that isn’t covered by the other forces, and the limits on their power seem to not be enforced by the mechanics of the game. Then, as [MENTION=7706]SkidAce[/MENTION] said, why do the Demon Lords and Archdevils still exist? Why is Orcus still a threat and creating undead if Kelemvor could just smash him and his kingdom to pieces? There needs to be a reason beyond “They just don’t feel like it” or the world falls apart and the gods are cast in an even worse light than they already are. Actually, scratch that, why doesn’t Lolth control the Abyss then? OR Tiamat the Nine Hells? They both reside in those realms and are both goddesses, if they are so much more powerful than the other denizens of those realms then why haven’t they taken control? I seem to be phrasing things poorly, because your example of NATO is exactly what I’m talking about. Despite the fact that we Americans are clearly superior to the British (I kid, I kid) no one on either side of the pond is going to say America and Britain are “in conflict” on a regular basis. That’s why I disagreed with the sentiment that most of the major conflicts in the Realms are based on Religion. Over half the religious forces in the Realms are not in conflict, competition maybe, but not conflict. They are in Conflict with the Evil Gods, but the Evil gods are this weird thing, where other than saying “I couldn’t have an evil cleric if I didn’t have an evil god because Asmodeus can’t grant clerical abilities to his cultists” they overlap quite majorly with the Demons and Devils. Heck, aren’t quite a few Evil Gods like Tiamat and Lolth denizens of the Hells and the Abyss respectively? Lolth even has though Yocochol demons (the yellow slime looking ones) in the MM that are specifically demons that she made, and her priestesses sometimes sleep with demons to make those Draegoloth things, but we must draw a distinct difference between the two groups. Essentially, I can see Conflict between the good gods and the evil gods, but the evil gods and the demons and devils all fill the exact same narrative niche, and I don’t know why we can’t just make the two groups synonymous. Mephistopheles is perhaps slightly weaker than Torm, but if the two got into a fight it would be a contest Mephistopheles could potentially win, even if the odds are incredibly low. And this doesn’t change the power structure of the world as much as it just tidies things up and makes it clear how dangerous these beings are, then we don’t need a god of murder, we’ve got plenty of foul monstrous things to advocate murder and assassination without it. The only god I see working as an evil god is Bane, because Tyranny and iron-fisted rule is something that can be made somewhat neutral in terms of LAW and people could logically go out and try and convert people by talking about unity and the rule of law, whereas advocating for Bhaal sounds more like “And after you murder people, you go and murder more people” which isn’t going to attract a lot of followers. [/QUOTE]
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