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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7148362" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>Yes, the leadership might have had goals beyond murder as many people as possible. On the other hand, they didn't seem to have trouble finding plenty of other people to do the murdering for them. And I'm not talking about the soldiers on the battlefields, just the ones behind the lines whose sole job was to round up and kill people. The sheer number of people that were willing to participate in such genocide (and the fact that it continues to happen again and again) is a pretty good sign that there are a lot of people who are willing to turn to hate given the right opportunity.</p><p></p><p>The church of Bane has the same situation, but without the benefit of a government backing them. What's their mission? Find and kill every faithful of Cyric. Of course, even if the body is found, it was a faithful of Cyric, so how hard is the local law enforcement going to pursue that?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely. The current Banite Zhentarim leader of Llorkh in my campaign is modeled after characters in Boardwalk Empire and Game of Thrones. Whether it's Hitler or a mob boss, to get to that level you have to have an enormous amount of charisma and skill. Corruption can easily run rampant when you are Lord of a frontier town or even a city state. There's larger state or federal government to act as protector to the populace. They gain in power because they are willing to do whatever it takes to get there, but most of the time its by greasing the right palms - sex and money go a very, very long way. It's all about building a solid loyal inner circle, and using deceit, murder, fear, and violence to take out competition. </p><p></p><p>As both the Nazi's and the Italian mafia have shown, tying that to religious beliefs is much stronger. Of course, that's also part of what justified the crusades too.</p><p></p><p>A church of murder works very well when the purpose of the church is to infiltrate any official position that can legally murder. Mercenaries, bounty hunters, the local guard and watch. Oh, and adventurers. This is a land with frontier law, and the death penalty can be applied by the arms of the law. And while magic can determine guilt and innocence to some degree, the law can give a lot of leeway. Like the act of drawing steel is enough to warrant deadly force.</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that the SS is the <em>perfect</em> model for the church of murder. Even the government of Russia, and certainly other dictatorships or near dictatorships provide plenty of opportunities for such a church. And frankly, if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia I think Europe would look very different today.</p><p></p><p>I think that WWII era germany is a perfect model for Zhentil Keep or Thay. Perhaps Thay is more like Cold War era Russia. The Lord of Murder doesn't have to be openly, or even secretly worshipped everywhere. Just those two places alone. In addition, being a polytheistic religion, a Banite could nod to Bhaal when committing a murder. For that matter, the act of murder alone might be considered a sacrifice to Bhaal on its own. Just as planting a tree is homage to Mielikki.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>About as difficult as Satanists in our world. And to many religions, Satan is seen as the only threat to God's people. While Asmodeus is often seen as a direct port of Satan to D&D, I'd say Bane is a better match in terms of the amount of power he's given.</p><p></p><p>Also, most polytheistic religions had evil gods, or at least gods that represented the nature of evil in the world. All aspects of life and the world are typically ascribed to the gods in one way or another. And while the rules have created gods for every intelligent race, perhaps Gruumsh is really an aspect of Bhaal. Or when the Uthgardt barbarians war with each other, that Myrkul is the god they call, but by a different name?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well to start, 5e doesn't use the concept of divine magic in the same way it used to. If you were to compare them, a cleric is quite different in their scope of powers than a warlock (although of course they have to be balanced for game purposes). A cleric has far more magical resources at their disposal, though.</p><p></p><p>Having said that, perhaps it serves Cyric's purposes to provide such power to those who worship Asmodeus? Spreading lies, deceit, and madness are his goals, no? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I couldn't answer for 4e, but earlier than that I don't think so. Fiends have generally been used as mercenaries by others (an evil wizard opening a gate, for example). But not able to grant abilities, particularly clerical abilities, to anybody.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The gods never enter my campaigns directly, and even my version of "the chosen" is a lot different from what's been published. Greenwood himself has said they aren't anything at all like the superheroes portrayed in TSR and later releases (because TSR wanted something different). Of course, the chosen tend not to be a part of my campaigns directly either. </p><p></p><p>I've also removed the Divine Intervention ability from the 5e cleric. I don't see the gods acting that directly in the world. The power creep stuff came from TSR, Ed's vision is "looking over the shoulders of “just plain folks” struggling to survive and flourish in the midst of whatever wildness is going on."</p><p></p><p>That's exactly what I prefer. I don't like the superhero thing (and have never been a comics or superhero fan). I like to see how ordinary people can do extraordinary things in extraordinary circumstances. Like Lord of the Rings.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7148362, member: 6778044"] Yes, the leadership might have had goals beyond murder as many people as possible. On the other hand, they didn't seem to have trouble finding plenty of other people to do the murdering for them. And I'm not talking about the soldiers on the battlefields, just the ones behind the lines whose sole job was to round up and kill people. The sheer number of people that were willing to participate in such genocide (and the fact that it continues to happen again and again) is a pretty good sign that there are a lot of people who are willing to turn to hate given the right opportunity. The church of Bane has the same situation, but without the benefit of a government backing them. What's their mission? Find and kill every faithful of Cyric. Of course, even if the body is found, it was a faithful of Cyric, so how hard is the local law enforcement going to pursue that? Absolutely. The current Banite Zhentarim leader of Llorkh in my campaign is modeled after characters in Boardwalk Empire and Game of Thrones. Whether it's Hitler or a mob boss, to get to that level you have to have an enormous amount of charisma and skill. Corruption can easily run rampant when you are Lord of a frontier town or even a city state. There's larger state or federal government to act as protector to the populace. They gain in power because they are willing to do whatever it takes to get there, but most of the time its by greasing the right palms - sex and money go a very, very long way. It's all about building a solid loyal inner circle, and using deceit, murder, fear, and violence to take out competition. As both the Nazi's and the Italian mafia have shown, tying that to religious beliefs is much stronger. Of course, that's also part of what justified the crusades too. A church of murder works very well when the purpose of the church is to infiltrate any official position that can legally murder. Mercenaries, bounty hunters, the local guard and watch. Oh, and adventurers. This is a land with frontier law, and the death penalty can be applied by the arms of the law. And while magic can determine guilt and innocence to some degree, the law can give a lot of leeway. Like the act of drawing steel is enough to warrant deadly force. It seems to me that the SS is the [I]perfect[/I] model for the church of murder. Even the government of Russia, and certainly other dictatorships or near dictatorships provide plenty of opportunities for such a church. And frankly, if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia I think Europe would look very different today. I think that WWII era germany is a perfect model for Zhentil Keep or Thay. Perhaps Thay is more like Cold War era Russia. The Lord of Murder doesn't have to be openly, or even secretly worshipped everywhere. Just those two places alone. In addition, being a polytheistic religion, a Banite could nod to Bhaal when committing a murder. For that matter, the act of murder alone might be considered a sacrifice to Bhaal on its own. Just as planting a tree is homage to Mielikki. About as difficult as Satanists in our world. And to many religions, Satan is seen as the only threat to God's people. While Asmodeus is often seen as a direct port of Satan to D&D, I'd say Bane is a better match in terms of the amount of power he's given. Also, most polytheistic religions had evil gods, or at least gods that represented the nature of evil in the world. All aspects of life and the world are typically ascribed to the gods in one way or another. And while the rules have created gods for every intelligent race, perhaps Gruumsh is really an aspect of Bhaal. Or when the Uthgardt barbarians war with each other, that Myrkul is the god they call, but by a different name? Well to start, 5e doesn't use the concept of divine magic in the same way it used to. If you were to compare them, a cleric is quite different in their scope of powers than a warlock (although of course they have to be balanced for game purposes). A cleric has far more magical resources at their disposal, though. Having said that, perhaps it serves Cyric's purposes to provide such power to those who worship Asmodeus? Spreading lies, deceit, and madness are his goals, no? I couldn't answer for 4e, but earlier than that I don't think so. Fiends have generally been used as mercenaries by others (an evil wizard opening a gate, for example). But not able to grant abilities, particularly clerical abilities, to anybody. The gods never enter my campaigns directly, and even my version of "the chosen" is a lot different from what's been published. Greenwood himself has said they aren't anything at all like the superheroes portrayed in TSR and later releases (because TSR wanted something different). Of course, the chosen tend not to be a part of my campaigns directly either. I've also removed the Divine Intervention ability from the 5e cleric. I don't see the gods acting that directly in the world. The power creep stuff came from TSR, Ed's vision is "looking over the shoulders of “just plain folks” struggling to survive and flourish in the midst of whatever wildness is going on." That's exactly what I prefer. I don't like the superhero thing (and have never been a comics or superhero fan). I like to see how ordinary people can do extraordinary things in extraordinary circumstances. Like Lord of the Rings. [/QUOTE]
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