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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7149266" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>You're right that religion is only part of what bothers me. Just giving them a list of gods like the other races seems like such a cop out. I would view orcs and goblin kin, if religious at all, to be much more primitive. Of course, warlocks didn't exist in the game then, but numerous shaman or witch doctor variations did. Having them worship a spirit world, or working backwards from them being an entirely warlike race, how would their religion have developed. For example, would they bury their dead? One option is to bury them with a weapon for their battle in eternal life, but why would they believe in eternal life? I think they are more brutal than that - why waste a good weapon by burying it? If they don't believe in eternal life, or even that there is "good" in the world, because "good" isn't good. Putting their head on a stake could be seen as both respectful and as a statement of power of the new chief. If they use magic at all, I seem to recall before their gods were published in Dragon magazine, that they were listed as having shamans or witch doctors (or both). There are so many possibilities rather than just another list of polytheistic gods.</p><p></p><p>It does go beyond that for me. Dragonborn are the prime example for me, although the design goes back to Dragonlance (the stupid Saurians in the Realms are another example). They are all designed basically as humans in a dragon suit. Or humans in a dinosaur suit. They stand entirely upright, with proportions that apparently match a human since they can wear the same armor. Some have tails, which would be absurd with that posture, and they act like humans.</p><p></p><p>If I recall, the dragonborn city that landed in Unther had granaries, outlying farms, etc. They are <em>carnivores</em>. They don't even have teeth (and most likely not a digestive system) that can process grain. I would make dragonborn (draconians, whatever), lizard folk, troglodytes, saurians (if I bothered) and any other reptilian-based race capable of being bipedal and quadrupedal. They need to be able to stand tall to see around, but the quadruped posture makes them faster, usually better at climbing. </p><p></p><p>Lizard folk in my campaign use primitive stone or bone weapons, or metal weapons that they get from victims. Living in swamps, their primary tactics are ambush and drown. Turtleshell shields, spears or javelins, bows, that sort of thing, maybe some armor pieces as protection. They have primitive religion (if at all, most of the time it doesn't come into play). A hunter-warrior based society. Note that their culture would have developed out of competition with other tribes of their kind, and their hunting territories. They don't have many natural enemies in great swamplands. They bear a lot of similarities to alligators or crocodiles.</p><p></p><p>Troglodytes are similar, just underground versions. They are slim and have warrens that are filled with small winding tunnels that humans can't fit through. They carry javelins (weapons that are short enough to work in their tunnels), and metal weapons they can find and slings. Their tactics are to use ranged weapon attacks, then disappear into tunnels to come out someplace else and attack again. When their prey is weakened enough, they'll move in to attack with their natural attacks for the kill. They are carnivorous and warlike since food is scarce. Again, hunter warriors, but in this case they are also fighting goblin kin, orcs, dwarves, and other underdark races. So I think they would be hunter-scavengers-thieves. Their tunnel tactics are fantastic for this, because they can make it difficult for another predator to keep their kill, harassing them mercilessly. I also have them capable of climbing (even upside down) in their caverns. So in large caverns, you'll often see scouts high on a wall, then scurry away - a lot like my daughter chasing lizards at Myrtle Beach.</p><p></p><p>They are more serpentine, closer to the old Ral Partha troglodytes: <a href="http://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_05_2016/post-1758-0-48418600-1462636349.jpg" target="_blank">http://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_05_2016/post-1758-0-48418600-1462636349.jpg</a></p><p></p><p>Being primitive carnivores, they never developed civilizations like man. Civilization grew out of agriculture, the ability to stay in one place and still have plentiful food. Without a stationary civilization, they never developed the tools and processes like mining, forging, and stuff like that required to develop metal weapons. So no mining, no forging, and in the case of lizardfolk, steel weapons and armor are of almost no long-term use because they'd rust. </p><p></p><p>If I did saurians, then they'd first look more like dinosaurs (posture, etc.) and there are herbivores, so developing agriculture, basic mining etc. For interest, it would probably be bronze age technology. The carnivores are more intelligent, so agriculture would be based on enough food for raising great herds of herbivores. Armor and weapons as we use would be of limited use for such capable carnivores, and might not have developed at all. It would be a question of developing enough of a culture where they recognize that one sauropod will feed a lot of theropods if they develop the means to have a ready supply, and not allow the meat to go to waste. Religion? Again, I'm not sure it would develop at all, but certainly not in the same way as humans.</p><p></p><p>Dragonborn, again, more draconic. In the 4e dragonborn lore, they were slaves to dragons. Where can you get away from dragons? In caves too small for the dragon to fit. You're definitely not going to suddenly decide to build a farm and grow wheat, ignoring the fact that wheat's not even food for now. Wings or no wings? Either way, I think you'd develop into a hunter-warrior race, with ambush tactics to avoid the dragons and potentially fight them. You might develop a civilization where you nest together in a central cavern, and you're intelligent enough to share food. Perhaps even learn to raise food, like bat farming, perhaps. A "herd" of several hundred thousand bats would provide a ready source of food, along with perhaps underwater fishing. Oh, and, you know, weaker things. Like orcs and goblins and such. Being slaves themselves, I could easily see them being slavers as well, taking kobolds (the next draconic race down the rung), and using them as farmers, fishers, and such to raise food for the dragonborn.</p><p></p><p>Not sure they would be a mining race, although they could certainly use slaves for that. Weapon and armor use is dependent upon questions like can they fly? Traders eager to trade with their new neighbors in the Realms? First of all, what would they trade? My orcs, goblin kin, troglodytes, and lizard folk are all hunter-warriors. They might, just might, choose to form an alliance with a neighboring tribe, and trade symbolic gifts. A weapon, probably. They certainly haven't developed a coin-based economy. To an orc, coins are useless. Kill a human, take weapons and armor. Maybe jewelry if you're into shiny things. </p><p></p><p>Regardless, I don't have a need to develop dragonborn more, because I don't use them. The Realms (or at least mine) has half-dragons, born from unions of a male dragon in humanoid form, and a female of another humanoid race. I tend to make them fertile only with elves (including drow) and humans. They look elvish, although with potentially slightly different features, and grow up in human/elvish cultures. They very well could be the source of sorcerous magic (who are many generations removed), as that's the natural magic of dragons (although they can learn arcane wizardly magic as well). Dwarves and halflings cannot be sorcerers in my Realms, although they still have magic resistance (part of the reason they can't be sorcerers). Their abilities (and existence) consists of much rumor and myth. </p><p></p><p>So what it comes down to for me, when it comes to religion, is what religion would develop based on these histories and cultures? A hobgoblin military academy as in VGtM? Wait, what?!</p><p></p><p>Now there are regions in the Realms that Greenwood has specifically developed as ruled by monsters, such as the beast-men of Thar. I can go with that - a land where hobgoblins and ogres have evolved enough to build something more like a civilization. I'm not sure if I would go with them as different races (it's well beyond any area explored by any of my PCs). They trade with neighboring human realms to some degree. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with this, but the politics often brings religion into the conflict, because religion moves people of faith more. Even Hitler used religion as a basis for his regime.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely. I don't even think you necessarily need to lost the cleric spell list, that really just dependent on how you want to provide divine magic, which isn't really a thing in 5e anymore. However, even in the background, the gods and the religions are kind on an integral part of the Realms. Does it mean it's not the Realms if you don't use them? No. But I probably wouldn't remove them.</p><p></p><p>Asmodeus is a god in the Realms now anyway. Lolth has been for a long time. So the addition of others really isn't a big deal. And with the way the gods have been used officially, changing things wholesale could easily be accomplished.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, I don't recall anything about the fiends being portrayed as enemies of the gods and trying to destroy what they have. Most of the time they are involved in the Blood Wars against themselves, and trying (for some reason) to get to the material plane. My reasoning has always been one of souls. If faith provides power to the gods (but not fiends), then stealing (killing) a soul not only weakens a god, but could potentially be used as power in the lower planes. Or something along those lines.</p><p></p><p>Also, the gods in the Realms are specifically <em>not</em> all powerful. That was one of the driving designs that Ed had at the beginning. His was based on the idea of a goddess of magic. The goddess of magic would be the most powerful, because not only could she shape magic to do anything she'd want, but she could deny the other gods the use of the magic. If that's the case, why are there other gods? So he created the chosen of Mystra, free-willed mortals that hold a bit of her magic. She can't control them, she can't take back the magic, and the magic lives in them and other places outside of her, so she can't prevent the other gods from accessing magic. So she's no longer all-powerful, and neither are the other gods. Together, perhaps, they'd have the resources to kill the fiends, but they are petty, scheming beings just like humans and can't agree on that. Moreso, they don't really care. I don't think they are that much more powerful than the fiends, if at all, and certainly not against the massed armies of the fiends. In fact, to tie into your questions as to why the fiends aren't/can't be gods, perhaps it's just because they haven't been able to be organized enough to amass enough followers. So Asmodeus, being a devil (and lawful good) has been able to take enough control of the hells, that he has achieved godhood. Lolth achieved it through the worship of a single race, in the Realms and other material planes.</p><p></p><p>The gods of the Realms are focused on Toril, because that's where their power comes from. If anything, I'd compare it to a cold war where neither side has the power to take out the other without mutual destruction. And while gods have been killed, it's become clear that that often isn't permanent.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7149266, member: 6778044"] You're right that religion is only part of what bothers me. Just giving them a list of gods like the other races seems like such a cop out. I would view orcs and goblin kin, if religious at all, to be much more primitive. Of course, warlocks didn't exist in the game then, but numerous shaman or witch doctor variations did. Having them worship a spirit world, or working backwards from them being an entirely warlike race, how would their religion have developed. For example, would they bury their dead? One option is to bury them with a weapon for their battle in eternal life, but why would they believe in eternal life? I think they are more brutal than that - why waste a good weapon by burying it? If they don't believe in eternal life, or even that there is "good" in the world, because "good" isn't good. Putting their head on a stake could be seen as both respectful and as a statement of power of the new chief. If they use magic at all, I seem to recall before their gods were published in Dragon magazine, that they were listed as having shamans or witch doctors (or both). There are so many possibilities rather than just another list of polytheistic gods. It does go beyond that for me. Dragonborn are the prime example for me, although the design goes back to Dragonlance (the stupid Saurians in the Realms are another example). They are all designed basically as humans in a dragon suit. Or humans in a dinosaur suit. They stand entirely upright, with proportions that apparently match a human since they can wear the same armor. Some have tails, which would be absurd with that posture, and they act like humans. If I recall, the dragonborn city that landed in Unther had granaries, outlying farms, etc. They are [I]carnivores[/I]. They don't even have teeth (and most likely not a digestive system) that can process grain. I would make dragonborn (draconians, whatever), lizard folk, troglodytes, saurians (if I bothered) and any other reptilian-based race capable of being bipedal and quadrupedal. They need to be able to stand tall to see around, but the quadruped posture makes them faster, usually better at climbing. Lizard folk in my campaign use primitive stone or bone weapons, or metal weapons that they get from victims. Living in swamps, their primary tactics are ambush and drown. Turtleshell shields, spears or javelins, bows, that sort of thing, maybe some armor pieces as protection. They have primitive religion (if at all, most of the time it doesn't come into play). A hunter-warrior based society. Note that their culture would have developed out of competition with other tribes of their kind, and their hunting territories. They don't have many natural enemies in great swamplands. They bear a lot of similarities to alligators or crocodiles. Troglodytes are similar, just underground versions. They are slim and have warrens that are filled with small winding tunnels that humans can't fit through. They carry javelins (weapons that are short enough to work in their tunnels), and metal weapons they can find and slings. Their tactics are to use ranged weapon attacks, then disappear into tunnels to come out someplace else and attack again. When their prey is weakened enough, they'll move in to attack with their natural attacks for the kill. They are carnivorous and warlike since food is scarce. Again, hunter warriors, but in this case they are also fighting goblin kin, orcs, dwarves, and other underdark races. So I think they would be hunter-scavengers-thieves. Their tunnel tactics are fantastic for this, because they can make it difficult for another predator to keep their kill, harassing them mercilessly. I also have them capable of climbing (even upside down) in their caverns. So in large caverns, you'll often see scouts high on a wall, then scurry away - a lot like my daughter chasing lizards at Myrtle Beach. They are more serpentine, closer to the old Ral Partha troglodytes: [url]http://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_05_2016/post-1758-0-48418600-1462636349.jpg[/url] Being primitive carnivores, they never developed civilizations like man. Civilization grew out of agriculture, the ability to stay in one place and still have plentiful food. Without a stationary civilization, they never developed the tools and processes like mining, forging, and stuff like that required to develop metal weapons. So no mining, no forging, and in the case of lizardfolk, steel weapons and armor are of almost no long-term use because they'd rust. If I did saurians, then they'd first look more like dinosaurs (posture, etc.) and there are herbivores, so developing agriculture, basic mining etc. For interest, it would probably be bronze age technology. The carnivores are more intelligent, so agriculture would be based on enough food for raising great herds of herbivores. Armor and weapons as we use would be of limited use for such capable carnivores, and might not have developed at all. It would be a question of developing enough of a culture where they recognize that one sauropod will feed a lot of theropods if they develop the means to have a ready supply, and not allow the meat to go to waste. Religion? Again, I'm not sure it would develop at all, but certainly not in the same way as humans. Dragonborn, again, more draconic. In the 4e dragonborn lore, they were slaves to dragons. Where can you get away from dragons? In caves too small for the dragon to fit. You're definitely not going to suddenly decide to build a farm and grow wheat, ignoring the fact that wheat's not even food for now. Wings or no wings? Either way, I think you'd develop into a hunter-warrior race, with ambush tactics to avoid the dragons and potentially fight them. You might develop a civilization where you nest together in a central cavern, and you're intelligent enough to share food. Perhaps even learn to raise food, like bat farming, perhaps. A "herd" of several hundred thousand bats would provide a ready source of food, along with perhaps underwater fishing. Oh, and, you know, weaker things. Like orcs and goblins and such. Being slaves themselves, I could easily see them being slavers as well, taking kobolds (the next draconic race down the rung), and using them as farmers, fishers, and such to raise food for the dragonborn. Not sure they would be a mining race, although they could certainly use slaves for that. Weapon and armor use is dependent upon questions like can they fly? Traders eager to trade with their new neighbors in the Realms? First of all, what would they trade? My orcs, goblin kin, troglodytes, and lizard folk are all hunter-warriors. They might, just might, choose to form an alliance with a neighboring tribe, and trade symbolic gifts. A weapon, probably. They certainly haven't developed a coin-based economy. To an orc, coins are useless. Kill a human, take weapons and armor. Maybe jewelry if you're into shiny things. Regardless, I don't have a need to develop dragonborn more, because I don't use them. The Realms (or at least mine) has half-dragons, born from unions of a male dragon in humanoid form, and a female of another humanoid race. I tend to make them fertile only with elves (including drow) and humans. They look elvish, although with potentially slightly different features, and grow up in human/elvish cultures. They very well could be the source of sorcerous magic (who are many generations removed), as that's the natural magic of dragons (although they can learn arcane wizardly magic as well). Dwarves and halflings cannot be sorcerers in my Realms, although they still have magic resistance (part of the reason they can't be sorcerers). Their abilities (and existence) consists of much rumor and myth. So what it comes down to for me, when it comes to religion, is what religion would develop based on these histories and cultures? A hobgoblin military academy as in VGtM? Wait, what?! Now there are regions in the Realms that Greenwood has specifically developed as ruled by monsters, such as the beast-men of Thar. I can go with that - a land where hobgoblins and ogres have evolved enough to build something more like a civilization. I'm not sure if I would go with them as different races (it's well beyond any area explored by any of my PCs). They trade with neighboring human realms to some degree. I agree with this, but the politics often brings religion into the conflict, because religion moves people of faith more. Even Hitler used religion as a basis for his regime. Absolutely. I don't even think you necessarily need to lost the cleric spell list, that really just dependent on how you want to provide divine magic, which isn't really a thing in 5e anymore. However, even in the background, the gods and the religions are kind on an integral part of the Realms. Does it mean it's not the Realms if you don't use them? No. But I probably wouldn't remove them. Asmodeus is a god in the Realms now anyway. Lolth has been for a long time. So the addition of others really isn't a big deal. And with the way the gods have been used officially, changing things wholesale could easily be accomplished. So, I don't recall anything about the fiends being portrayed as enemies of the gods and trying to destroy what they have. Most of the time they are involved in the Blood Wars against themselves, and trying (for some reason) to get to the material plane. My reasoning has always been one of souls. If faith provides power to the gods (but not fiends), then stealing (killing) a soul not only weakens a god, but could potentially be used as power in the lower planes. Or something along those lines. Also, the gods in the Realms are specifically [I]not[/I] all powerful. That was one of the driving designs that Ed had at the beginning. His was based on the idea of a goddess of magic. The goddess of magic would be the most powerful, because not only could she shape magic to do anything she'd want, but she could deny the other gods the use of the magic. If that's the case, why are there other gods? So he created the chosen of Mystra, free-willed mortals that hold a bit of her magic. She can't control them, she can't take back the magic, and the magic lives in them and other places outside of her, so she can't prevent the other gods from accessing magic. So she's no longer all-powerful, and neither are the other gods. Together, perhaps, they'd have the resources to kill the fiends, but they are petty, scheming beings just like humans and can't agree on that. Moreso, they don't really care. I don't think they are that much more powerful than the fiends, if at all, and certainly not against the massed armies of the fiends. In fact, to tie into your questions as to why the fiends aren't/can't be gods, perhaps it's just because they haven't been able to be organized enough to amass enough followers. So Asmodeus, being a devil (and lawful good) has been able to take enough control of the hells, that he has achieved godhood. Lolth achieved it through the worship of a single race, in the Realms and other material planes. The gods of the Realms are focused on Toril, because that's where their power comes from. If anything, I'd compare it to a cold war where neither side has the power to take out the other without mutual destruction. And while gods have been killed, it's become clear that that often isn't permanent. [/QUOTE]
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