Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why FR Is "Hated"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7163190" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>Okay, I am starting to see I think where you're coming from. You're conflating two different things and to an extent that's my fault.</p><p></p><p>Thing #1: I don't require anybody to take "the gods" seriously. This is something which happens first and foremost at the metagame level. There is no social contract specifying that players have to take Thor seriously as anything a powerful NPC. Likewise there is no social contract specifying that if the PCs happen to meet Heracles, that he will be someone who is capable of <em>actually</em> holding up the sky. There's no social contract specifying that human beings <em>actually</em> have shards of both Ruin and Preservation in them. There are a lot of stories in the world and some of them are just myths--you can take them seriously if you want to but you might be wrong. Just like how it is on Earth.</p><p></p><p>The fact that certain NPCs pick up on that ambiguity too is incidental. You could in theory have a setting where the PCs were the first heretics ever to question the divinity of Gruumsh the Creator--the important part is that you <em>can</em> do so and the DM isn't going to get upset with you.</p><p></p><p>Thing #2 is important but not something which has been mentioned lately in this thread: powerful friendly supernatural beings over a certain level of capability are bad for the game because they remove opportunities for agency, especially if they are not Gods. I mean, Iluvatar is bad enough for dramatic tension in Lord of the Rings on a re-read (you know that Iluvatar is going to make things all turn out okay in the end) but at least an infallible, omnipotent overseer can let bad things happen to people in the short run because the end result will be good. If on the other hand Crom simply have lots of power and knowledge, but not an unlimited amount, then Crom is morally <em>obligated</em> to act when the opportunity presents itself, instead of letting the PCs do it. It's the Elminster problem on steroids. You have to be very careful how much power and knowledge and motivation you allow to friendly powers in the campaign world or it crushes the life out of the game.</p><p></p><p>For related reasons, you don't want actively hostile powers to be too strong either. Neutral powers are okay, especially if they're basically apathetic and uncaring.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not really. Having religions in the world doesn't require having gods of any kind. I believe I can say without controversy that at least 99% of the gods ever worshipped by humanity in the real world do not exist. An atheist would bump that up to 100% but it doesn't change the point--most gods are purely imaginary and always have been.</p><p></p><p>"<em>And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.</em>"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 7163190, member: 6787650"] Okay, I am starting to see I think where you're coming from. You're conflating two different things and to an extent that's my fault. Thing #1: I don't require anybody to take "the gods" seriously. This is something which happens first and foremost at the metagame level. There is no social contract specifying that players have to take Thor seriously as anything a powerful NPC. Likewise there is no social contract specifying that if the PCs happen to meet Heracles, that he will be someone who is capable of [I]actually[/I] holding up the sky. There's no social contract specifying that human beings [I]actually[/I] have shards of both Ruin and Preservation in them. There are a lot of stories in the world and some of them are just myths--you can take them seriously if you want to but you might be wrong. Just like how it is on Earth. The fact that certain NPCs pick up on that ambiguity too is incidental. You could in theory have a setting where the PCs were the first heretics ever to question the divinity of Gruumsh the Creator--the important part is that you [I]can[/I] do so and the DM isn't going to get upset with you. Thing #2 is important but not something which has been mentioned lately in this thread: powerful friendly supernatural beings over a certain level of capability are bad for the game because they remove opportunities for agency, especially if they are not Gods. I mean, Iluvatar is bad enough for dramatic tension in Lord of the Rings on a re-read (you know that Iluvatar is going to make things all turn out okay in the end) but at least an infallible, omnipotent overseer can let bad things happen to people in the short run because the end result will be good. If on the other hand Crom simply have lots of power and knowledge, but not an unlimited amount, then Crom is morally [I]obligated[/I] to act when the opportunity presents itself, instead of letting the PCs do it. It's the Elminster problem on steroids. You have to be very careful how much power and knowledge and motivation you allow to friendly powers in the campaign world or it crushes the life out of the game. For related reasons, you don't want actively hostile powers to be too strong either. Neutral powers are okay, especially if they're basically apathetic and uncaring. Not really. Having religions in the world doesn't require having gods of any kind. I believe I can say without controversy that at least 99% of the gods ever worshipped by humanity in the real world do not exist. An atheist would bump that up to 100% but it doesn't change the point--most gods are purely imaginary and always have been. "[I]And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.[/I]" [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why FR Is "Hated"
Top