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Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions
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<blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 6991755" data-attributes="member: 6716779"><p>For the most part I am quite happy with the 5E subclasses with most of them being interesting and/or powerful to play. There have been a couple of exceptions such as Beastmaster Ranger and Elemental Monks.</p><p></p><p> I think I am about to add a third and that is the Champion fighter. </p><p></p><p> My players are nor picking them and when I get to play I do not pick them either. And many moons ago I played a BECMI fighter with d8 hit points, +2 strength modifier and +1 modifier dex and con. The basic fighter was not that bad relative to the other class, the Champion may not be able to claim that, not sure if it can even claim that against other fighter options. </p><p></p><p> As I said I get the desire for a basic class but in its quest for simplicity the Champion got left behind because it simply needs better numbers. </p><p></p><p> This is not a complaint against the fighters lack of out of combat ability if you want that go play a Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian or another concept. Combat should be the fighters thing.</p><p></p><p> The main problem being is that is not. </p><p></p><p> All the warrior classes get 2 attacks a round, 3 for fighters at level 11+. The problem is until you get their the other warriors have various ways to get extra damage such as smites, rage, superiority dice, spells, hunters quarry etc. Action surge is decent but only goes so far and the Battlemaster gets to do that as well.</p><p></p><p> Hunter Rangers get things like colossus slayer or horde breaker as well (on top of hunters quarry). Hordebreaker is the better option IHMO (and then the Ranger often gets more attacks than the fighter)</p><p></p><p> The extra damage of the champions improved critical doesn't even stack up that well against a very basic hunter ranger build using colossus slayer+hunters quarry. </p><p></p><p> Finally at level 11 the Champion gets a 2rd attack but so does the battlemaster and short of the -5/+10 feats the other classes are dealing something similar in damage anyway and have out of combat options as well (spells, class abilities) and you can do other things in combat like cast bless, faerie fire or pass without trace or soak lots of damage as a Barbarian. </p><p></p><p> My players tend towards being powergamers (well 2 of them anyway) but they do not always pick the most powerful classes but they tend to power game whatever they do pick.</p><p></p><p>Current bunch.</p><p></p><p>Hunter Ranger (archer)</p><p>Dex based sword and board BM fighter</p><p>Light Cleric</p><p>Mastermind Rogue</p><p>Shadowdancer Monk</p><p></p><p> So not exactly the best classes chosen. </p><p></p><p> As I said I have not seen a champion picked since the WoTC boards were active in late 2014. Now perhaps the Champion is aimed at newer players but from what I am seeing they are not picking them either as they tend to take warlocks, wizards and sorcerers it seems. </p><p></p><p> My campaign will come to an end probably around level 12 and I will get to play and I am looking at war or knowledge cleric, moon druid, assassin rogue or whatever the party needs.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zardnaar, post: 6991755, member: 6716779"] For the most part I am quite happy with the 5E subclasses with most of them being interesting and/or powerful to play. There have been a couple of exceptions such as Beastmaster Ranger and Elemental Monks. I think I am about to add a third and that is the Champion fighter. My players are nor picking them and when I get to play I do not pick them either. And many moons ago I played a BECMI fighter with d8 hit points, +2 strength modifier and +1 modifier dex and con. The basic fighter was not that bad relative to the other class, the Champion may not be able to claim that, not sure if it can even claim that against other fighter options. As I said I get the desire for a basic class but in its quest for simplicity the Champion got left behind because it simply needs better numbers. This is not a complaint against the fighters lack of out of combat ability if you want that go play a Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian or another concept. Combat should be the fighters thing. The main problem being is that is not. All the warrior classes get 2 attacks a round, 3 for fighters at level 11+. The problem is until you get their the other warriors have various ways to get extra damage such as smites, rage, superiority dice, spells, hunters quarry etc. Action surge is decent but only goes so far and the Battlemaster gets to do that as well. Hunter Rangers get things like colossus slayer or horde breaker as well (on top of hunters quarry). Hordebreaker is the better option IHMO (and then the Ranger often gets more attacks than the fighter) The extra damage of the champions improved critical doesn't even stack up that well against a very basic hunter ranger build using colossus slayer+hunters quarry. Finally at level 11 the Champion gets a 2rd attack but so does the battlemaster and short of the -5/+10 feats the other classes are dealing something similar in damage anyway and have out of combat options as well (spells, class abilities) and you can do other things in combat like cast bless, faerie fire or pass without trace or soak lots of damage as a Barbarian. My players tend towards being powergamers (well 2 of them anyway) but they do not always pick the most powerful classes but they tend to power game whatever they do pick. Current bunch. Hunter Ranger (archer) Dex based sword and board BM fighter Light Cleric Mastermind Rogue Shadowdancer Monk So not exactly the best classes chosen. As I said I have not seen a champion picked since the WoTC boards were active in late 2014. Now perhaps the Champion is aimed at newer players but from what I am seeing they are not picking them either as they tend to take warlocks, wizards and sorcerers it seems. My campaign will come to an end probably around level 12 and I will get to play and I am looking at war or knowledge cleric, moon druid, assassin rogue or whatever the party needs. [/QUOTE]
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