Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4283955" data-attributes="member: 2011">The problem with Grab is Escape. The rules for Grab are ok, but the rules for Escape are not mathematically good.The odds of escaping a Grab are quite large, even for an untrained PC.The creature grabbing typically gives up a Standard Action, one hand (so cannot use it for shield or weapon), and needs a to hit roll to succeed. His chance of success is roughly 50%, but with success he does no damage. He merely immobilizes his opponent which typically at best gives Combat Advantage for future rounds and gave up a chance to do damage to acquire limited benefit.The Escape, on the other hand, is very easy to accomplish. The Escapee uses up a Move Action instead of a Standard Action, and so regardless of success or not, he can still attack in the same round. Or, he can attempt to escape a second time if he fails the first time. For trained PCs, the chance of succeeding on the first attempt is roughly 70% (give or take). The chance for non-trained PCs is roughly 35% (25% difference plus 10% typical difference in stats).If the PC attempts to do this with a Move Action and a Standard Action, it increases to ~91% and ~58%. Add in an Action Point if necessary, and those odds jump up to 97% and 73%. People can plug in their own numbers, but these are probably typical numbers. The odds of removing this condition, even without feats or magic is better than making a save for any other condition (which also have one round duration guarantee).When one adds in Feats such as Skill Focus, Magic Items, and other modifiers (and the fact that allies can remove a grabbed PC with Push, Pull, or Slide) and that grabs really do not prevent the PC from acting, just moving, grapples really are a thing of the past and have no real teeth in this system. More of a nuisance than a viable combat option.However, the math is basically the same as Intimidate: Skill vs. Defense. Unlike Intimidate, Escape has no +5 to +15 added to the defense side of the equation, hence, it is super easy to do.So, I added a house rule of +5 to the Defense for Escape. I checked it out at a few levels and it still tends to give Trained PCs a near 50% chance of success per attempt, but non-Trained ones drop to about 15%. Still good odds against a Mind Flayer or Roper if the Wizard cannot kill it (or stun it or daze it or teleport away from it) per attempt considering that a weak untrained Wizard really should never escape the grasp of such a creature which is supposed to be good at grappling whereas the Wizard is not.If there are additional (significant) rules that I am unaware of which change the basic math here (and yes, this already included PC armor check penalty and the bonus to fort/reflex that most monsters get), please let me know. Thanks.</blockquote>

Verification