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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4285959" data-attributes="member: 2011">Yup, you convinced me. The problems with Grab / Escape is:1) Grab as a Standard Action vs. one or more Escape as a Move Action is unbalanced (especially when one considers that the chance to Escape for anyone who takes one of two skills is typically &gt; the chance to Grab, 2 vs. 1 and better chances, Grab in this case basically sucks as an option).2) The +5 for a Skill combined with heavily loading an Ability Score can by mid-levels quickly overwhelm not having a +5 for a Skill combined with never loading an ability score (and moreso by high level). The character who never loads the Ability Score is going to rely on alternative means of Escape. So, the two concepts are never going to be balanced and it's not worth trying to.3) The designers added Grab as part of an Attack for some Monsters which relegates it to the equivalent of a Free Action in those cases. The main attack is the damage, the secondary attack is the Grab.So in point #3, it doesn't matter too much if a PC is good at Escape, the Grab is a secondary effect and the main effect of the attack still occurs. It only matters for #1. So, the solution is to not put a penalty on Escape which affects #1 and #3, rather it is to decrease the amount of Action required for the Grab in #1. Effectively, changing a Grab to a Move Action would balance #1 and not affect #3 at all.Thanks for the help. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4285959, member: 2011"] Yup, you convinced me. The problems with Grab / Escape is: 1) Grab as a Standard Action vs. one or more Escape as a Move Action is unbalanced (especially when one considers that the chance to Escape for anyone who takes one of two skills is typically > the chance to Grab, 2 vs. 1 and better chances, Grab in this case basically sucks as an option). 2) The +5 for a Skill combined with heavily loading an Ability Score can by mid-levels quickly overwhelm not having a +5 for a Skill combined with never loading an ability score (and moreso by high level). The character who never loads the Ability Score is going to rely on alternative means of Escape. So, the two concepts are never going to be balanced and it's not worth trying to. 3) The designers added Grab as part of an Attack for some Monsters which relegates it to the equivalent of a Free Action in those cases. The main attack is the damage, the secondary attack is the Grab. So in point #3, it doesn't matter too much if a PC is good at Escape, the Grab is a secondary effect and the main effect of the attack still occurs. It only matters for #1. So, the solution is to not put a penalty on Escape which affects #1 and #3, rather it is to decrease the amount of Action required for the Grab in #1. Effectively, changing a Grab to a Move Action would balance #1 and not affect #3 at all. Thanks for the help. :) [/QUOTE]

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