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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6833140" data-attributes="member: 42582">Again, from reading [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s posts, he isn't necessarily looking for magic-using classes to be limited (except maybe in Primeval Thule?). He wants them not to feel like somewhat-homogenised pew-pew-ers.To give my own example - if you drop/limit magic-using classes altogether, then you don't have druids who can speak to animals, pass through overgrown plants, etc. But does bringing in that sort of magic have to also bring in at-will attack magic? Or even prevalent attack magic?The answer in general is clearly No. But the answer in the 5e context seems to be Yes. As I said upthread, I think this is a combination of a particular design ethos: (1) every class is of (roughly) comparable effectiveness in combat; (2) magic-using classes will use magic as a key component of their effectiveness. I think you are right to list a third factor: (3) the same spell mechanic and overlapping spell lists will be the main mechanic for allowing magic-use.AD&D obviously was somewhat less concerned about (1), but - and I think more significantly - wasn't really concerned about (2) at all. To the extent that clerics and druids were of comparable combat effectiveness, for instance (HD; good weapon choices; in the case of clerics, best armour in the game), it wasn't particularly because of their magic.This is a distinct factor that pushes towards making otherwise martial or non-caster classes (rangers, monks, and arguably at least some paladins and bards also) into being magic users. As well as the "GM restriction" thing, there is also the fact that many abilities need to be rationed, and D&D has traditionally preferred to integrate ingame and metagame reasons for rationing, and the traditional way that is done is via the Vancian spell.Both these factors seems to have had quite an influence on 5e's design - I assume in reaction to the hostility many D&D/PF players evinced to the way non-magical abilities were implemented in 4e.</blockquote>

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