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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6851285" data-attributes="member: 996">Sure, Epic level 3.5 characters could accumulate 30 HD. [sblock="off topic math"]Though, even if we compare 20th level 3e PH1  to 30th level 4e PH1...3.5:  20th level barbarian, 20d12 HD + 18 CON, 24 CON with a +6 item, 30 CON when raging:  216, 296 up to 376 hps, on average, with maxxed out CON and rolling all 12s, 500 hp ... before Raging for another 80)4e:  30th level Fighter maxxed out CON:  219 hps, no rage available, but if a max-CHA Warlord were to use the Heart of the Titan daily on him he could gain 64 temp hps.5e did rein things in compared to 3e:  a 20th level max-CON barbarian only averages 236 hps, 340 rolling all 12s, and rage doesn't give him more... it just halves the damage he takes.OTOH, minimum hps definitely 'peaked' in 4e.  A 30th-level wizard with a 10 CON (you couldn't start with less than 8 CON, and gained 2 automatically over the first 21 levels) had 96 hps.  Roll all 1's on your HD, and a minimum-CON wizard in 3e, or 2e, or 5e, gets 20 hps.   [/sblock]Heh.  Though I suppose that may have come as a surprise to whoever had the bright idea of reducing 1st-level hps so dramatically.  (There's somewhere you can hang your 'inflation peaked in 4e' hat:  1st-level hps definitely were higher in 4e than they are in 5e or are in any prior edition, for that matter, or PF, AFAIK.)[sblock="off topic math"]+15 + STR + prof + weapon talent + Enhancement/Inherent + feats + power  + Combat Advantage is a lot of bonuses.  Not nearly +20 + STR (+ enhancement bonuses to STR) + size modifier + feats + Enhancement + Circumstance + Competence + Insight + Luck + Morale + Sacred/Profane + Epic...  3.x was just a lot more open-ended when it came to bonus types & stacking.  It could get pretty crazy.Plugging just insane absolutely maximized values into those would look something like:+15 + 10 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 3 + 10 + 2 = +50 (but that's including an equally maxed-out Warlord blowing a daily to help you hit), so more like 40.  vs+20 + 13 + 8 + 3 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 20 + 3 +4 +2 + 5 = +89, but that's including a True Strike item and scads of typically-silly high-level pre-buffing, so more like 50 on a regular basis.  Though, that doesn't count depriving your foe of DEX bonus to AC, or the possibility of stacking untyped bonuses...  Removing cheese brings that down a lot faster for the latter, though.  More like 34 vs 43 [/sblock]Not that 5e didn't (over?) react to the high numbers of the previous two editions, just that 4e had already pulled back from the crazy optimization-fueled excesses of 3e.</blockquote>

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