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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MerricB" data-source="post: 5601593" data-attributes="member: 3586">I've made a few comments recently about how I'm not fond of Sigil, Planescape or the Lady of Pain. So, here's an explanation for why I feel that way. I'm not particularly fond of Planescape in 2E/3E, but I really dislike the idea in 4E.In particular, I really, really dislike how the Lady of Pain devalues the gods. I'm not opposed to areas that gods can't enter (see Death's Reach), but the reason they can't enter there is far more convincing than the fiat that enables Sigil.Then too, Planescape is part of the extreme fragmentation of D&D, so I've always been opposed to it on that principle. (I also am not fond of DiTerlizzi's artwork, and I despise the cant).One of the best times I had recently was the PCs meeting the Raven Queen, and them being speechless as a result. This was a god - their god - and she held the power of life and death over them. That's what I want from the gods: these are the creators of humanity and demihumanity, and they should be loved and occasionally feared.This is not to say that the gods are omnipotent and invulnerable - by no means - but can you really imagine the Zeus of Greek mythology or the Odin of Norse mythology being unable to affect the Lady of Pain? The influence of Greek and Norse mythology is extremely visible on the 4E mythology, and it'd be nice to see the gods in a similar position of power.Odin is a more vulnerable figure than Zeus, to be sure. The Norse gods are suitably wary of the Giants (who correspond to the power of the old Primordials in 4E, although the Primordials are somewhat of a fusion of the Giants of Norse mythology and the Titans of Greek mythology). In numbers lies strength, and though no single giant could stand against Thor with Mjollnir in hand, given enough numbers, you'd at least get an interesting fight. Although interesting might mean "end of the world". Certainly Utgard-Loki, king of the giants in Utgard according to one legend, was only able to "best" Thor with illusions, and after Thor's visit no longer wished to test Thor's might at all.Interestingly, one of the key "D&Disms" of the epic plotline - that of Orcus slaying and supplanting the Raven Queen - is actually very similar to Odin's slaying of Ymir, and Zeus's slaying of Kronos. (There's also the Idun incident...)Returning to Sigil, one effect of the Lady of Pain's existence is that suddenly atheism - in an otherwise theistic cosmos - becomes an option. And, thus, you get the factions. Completely irrelevant outside of Sigil, because the morality and ethics promulgated by the gods actually apply elsewhere. It sort of works in the confused state of mythological affairs that was 2E, where there seems to be 1001 gods or more, but with the tighter set of mythology in 4E, even if the gods don't work as tightly together as a pantheon as the rest of mythology implies they should, the factions stick out like a sore thumb. Thankfully they're mostly not there in 4E.The idea of meeting places - civilisation - in the Astral Sea is an interesting one. Personally, I'm very fond of the City of Brass (dating back to the cover of the old Dungeon Masters Guide), but with Sigil, I really need something more than "it exists because of the Lady of Pain". Who uses it? Why do they use it? What is the civilisation of the outer planar creatures that requires such a meeting place to exist?"An angel and a devil sit down at a bar" sounds like a good start to a story, but why would that meeting ever take place? Is it a forced contrivance to tell a story, or does it make sense within the mythology you have? In 4E, it looks forced to me.The civilisation of the Efreet gives rise to the City of Brass, and the trade opportunities there for high-level characters, and thus I can justify it. I don't have such a justification for the City of Doors.Cheers!</blockquote>

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