Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Radiating Gnome" data-source="post: 5965766" data-attributes="member: 150">I've always liked Skill Challenges, warts and all.  I think they're an incredibly useful, flexible, and potentially very interesting part of 4e.  One of the big turning points for me with Skill Challenges was to really understand that the  idea of "exceptions-based design" was not just for PCs, Monsters, and tactical encounters.  It could -- and should -- be used for skill challenges, too.  And just like monsters, just about every skill challenge should probably have exceptions and unique elements that help it tell the story, etc.  So, I pretty much only use the "classic" skill challenge when I'm adjudicating something on the fly -- the PCs have come up with something I'm not really prepared for, and we're just rolling with the flow.  As a simple mechanic for handling things like that, it's great. But when I have a few minutes to think about what the challenge might look like, anything and everything about the skill challenge is something that I think is important to consider changing.  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">My primary goal when designing a challenge is to give the PCs interesting choices to make. It should be more that just find the "highest total bonus on your list of skills and make a check." </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I only require contributions from every PC in the part when that seems to make sense for the scene. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I often use ticking clock mechanics rather than simple failures.  This allows for players who don't have a good chance of helping to give it a shot without really hurting the effort.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'll make heavy use of secondary checks that do things like help avoid hazards and evade trouble during a skill challenge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'll use skill challenge type mechanics to abstract less exciting combat scenes that I still want represented in the game </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I've used a variety of mini game mechanics to help model different situations. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I have always felt that it was a good thing to share the structure and rules of the skill challenge with the players (in most cases). After all, players understand very clearly how the combat rules work, and are able to make interesting, creative, often surprising choices in combat because of that.  A good skill challenge should give them those opportunities for cool, creative choices. For me, that often comes from allowing the PCs to see how the challenge is working. (Of course, I make exceptions to this all the time, like anything else)</li> </ul>The key, as I said, is that element of making choices. In the game session I ran this past sunday, there were a couple of skill challenges.  - In one case, during a fight, a building the PCs owned (and were fighting in) was set on fire.  I gave the PCs very little structure and a lot of latitude, but they also had to try to fight the fire while fighting the fire elementat ambush that started the fire, too.  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Any round (of combat or after) that ended without the PCs earning at least one success in the challenge resulted in a failure. They needed 6 to get the fire under control</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There failures and the fire would be out of control</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Any skill check the PCs repeated to try to put out the fire became more difficult each time (+2)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PCs could use appropriate powers, etc, if they had an idea for how it could work.</li> </ul>In the end, the fire went out of control, but mostly that was because one PC didn't think they should save the building, and managed to convince/confuse the others enough that they were not able to maintain the one success per round pace. But just a few exceptions to the rules made this a cool way to represent the scene.  I'm saddened to hear things like "skill challenges die in a fire" from the DDN developers, but I'm hoping that we'll see something like it in a add-on module. Certainly I'll be cobbling it together for my own games.I mean... look, we've had 30 years of playing D&D to get combat right, and we're still tweaking it. We've been making monsters for decades, and they're still perfecting that.  The idea of complex resolution systems for non-combat actions is a lot newer, and has had a tiny fraction of the development time invested in making them sing.  In creating that DDN module of Skill Challenges That Survived The Fire (tm), I think we need to encourage some changes to the way skill challenges have been presented and taught.  Certainly, lots and lots of examples are good (the way lots and lots of monsters are good, as others have pointed out). But there really ought to be a toolbox of ideas & possible exceptions included. And in addition to scripts of examples of skill challenges in play, lets include some examples of the thought processes that a DM goes through designing a skill challenge to model a specific scene.   It should champion the idea that, like monsters, no two skill challenges should be exactly the same -- and the more choices you make for your players instead of giving to your players, the less exciting/interesting the skill challenge will be.   -rg</blockquote>

Verification