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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5971232" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Lanefan,I think we got our wires moderately crossed somewhere within the scene I was attempting to fashion there.In my example, the failed Ride check doesn't narrow the scope and demand that you ride uncontrollably over the ravine (or attempt to leap it after you re-exert control).  It broadens it.  The failed Ride check doesn't flow in a linear fashion from or simulate the process of horsemanship.  The failed check introduces new adversity relative to the composition of the challenge (the escape from pursuit) - A nearly impassable ravine with a rushing river far below.  At this point, the PC has several decisions that can all interface with the skill system and add another success/failure to the resolution process moving it closer toward * its result while furthering the dynamism of the fiction and moving toward a new decision-point which repeats the process:- (Bluff/Disguise or its equivalent) Tie the saddlebags, rocks, whatever is available to the saddle to make the horse appear to have a rider.  Wait for the pursuit to get in eye-shot, then whack the horse on its rump, sending it off in a gallop paralleling the ravine face hoping the pursuit follows after.  Skill challenge then proceeds to its next phase and would broaden the scope of the next check/decision-point (perhaps climbing down?...perhaps investigating the terrain for another route)- (Athletics/Ride or its equivalent) Attempt to leap the ravine to the other side.  Failure or success in this could count as 2 successes or failures and would likely narrow the scope of the next check/decision-point.- (Spot/Perception/Listen/Nature or its equivalent) Use land lore or perceptive capacity to find another route...a narrowing of the ravine...a treacherous switchback to the base of the ravine...a sinkhole...etc...etc.  I would likely require my PC to narrate what he finds if he gets a success. This would broaden the scope of the next check/decision-point and engage the player in fiction creation.And on and on.  There are others but I think that is sufficient.* Besides the process outlined above, I think there is some misunderstanding of the nature of skill challenges and its scene framing/focused goal and its accompanying adjudication of result.  They are not used to resolve meaningless, non-complex moments within the fiction.  They are used as a noncombat scene resolution mechanic when you have a specific scene in mind that you wish to capture.  Further, and this is important, you DO NOT want the results of a singular or a final check to be a linear arbiter of "what results from the scene's success/failure."  This is because aggregate successes/failures create layered tension (when done right).  If a skill challenge was just a collection of checks, and not a derived result of a compilation of checks and its accompanying emergent fiction, then yes, it would be a superfluous mechanic.  However, that is not how they're scene resolution mechanics render themselves upon the fiction.  They are a "closed system."  The accompanying results are a product of success/failure...not process simulation of each check and definitely not a linear response to the last check.In the above example, let us say assume the following predisposition and the following checks and the emergent fiction:- The PC Rider is a thief attempting to steal the Serpent's Eye from a temple of lizardmen who worship some fell god of corruption.  A village nearby has fallen ill by some contagion.  The local priests assume a pestilent curse has been placed upon them by the lizardmen and it can be undone by destroying the relic in a complex ritual (perhaps another skill challenge).Skill Challenge (4:3)- The PC Rider hot foots out it of the temple with overwhelming numbers pursuing him.  He attempts to use a check to create obstruction and slow pursuit but fails as the lizardmen are unaffected.  They are hot on his heels now (and perhaps a lost resource of some kind or a negative to his next check).  1 failure.- The PC Rider leaps to his horse and slashes its tied reins in one smooth motion setting off on a ferocious gallop, successfully putting a bit of distance between himself and his pursuit.  1 success:1 failure- Along the way, in his haste (failed check of some kind), he loses track of the topography.  Instead of crossing the landbridge over the ravine, he has backed himself into a corner...his pursuit fast behind him and a treacherous jump across a river laden ravine.  1 success:2 failure- He needs to get across and to the village.  He is desperate.  While options are a-many, they narrow in his mind.  He draws in a deep breath, rounds his horse back a few paces...he's going for it!  He narrowly succeeds the difficult check, right on the DC, but his horse is injured for the effort (negative to ride skill checks or movement rate...whatever might be applicable).  3 success:2 failure- His pursuit may know a way around...they may successfully jump the ravine...he may not make it back in time to save sick people if his horse cannot make the stetch run.  He decides he needs to attempt to temporarily mend the horses wound (a sprained ligament).  He attempts to splint it but is unsuccessful in his efforts.  3rd failure.- He loses the skill challenge.Ok.  He loses the skill challenge here, but many interesting things have happened...he's had some heroic efforts and some setbacks and its been Indiana Jones like genre-relevant (which is what I was attempting to capture).  Now, what emerges directly from this closed-system skill challenge is not going to be process simulation from that last check.  It will be the aggregate + what will be interesting + relevant:- Perhaps I decide that due to how heroic that jump was that several lizardmen attempt it with on 1, maybe 2 succeeding, while the rest suffer climactic failures...perhaps he helps a one or more along with a well aimed arrow.  A difficult combat encounter ensues.- Perhaps I decide that the lizardmen give up their pursuit but a shaman curses him with contagion before they make the long trek to the land bridge.  Now he is weary, sick and with a lame horse.  Perhaps a new skill challenge ensues where he has to make it back to the village, on foot, and adversed by a crippling sickness before he himself dies.- Perhaps, if I'm feeling particulary cruel, I decide that horrendous weather sets in making it impossible for him to get back in time to save the villagers. All but a few priests remain.- And on and on.  All because he failed a Heal check...wait that makes no sense?  How does a failed heal check cause any of that?  The answer is...it doesn't.  A skill challenge is a closed system meant to resolve an important scene (through interesting, narrative decision-point evolution) and its emergent consequences.</blockquote>

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