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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6250441" data-attributes="member: 2525">Basic edition probably introduced more people to D&D, successfully, than any other edition of D&D.  And Basic was about as rules-lite as the game has ever come, in an official capacity.  So, I think history says you're wrong on that count.Rules bloat seems to be the single largest complaint about 3e/PF.4e was not, in any way, even vaguely rules-lite.  It was not pseudo rules-lite, and it was not a fast paced game.  Indeed, the slowness of the game was the single largest complaint about the gameHaving to read a lot to get a full grasp of the system IS a fault of the system, and it's again the single largest complaint about that system, that rules-bloat made it an overwhelming amount to read for a new player (and even for many experienced players and DMs).  On the other hand, your claim that rules-lite systems require a more experienced DM simply is not backed up by any evidence, given Basic D&D was wildly successful in introducing players to D&D, and it was the most rules-lite of the official systems.  You have to learn all the rules, or else wing it, or pause the game to figure it out.  So if you wing it, you might as well play rules-lite.  And if you pause the game, you're providing a significantly worse experience.  Pick your poison.Right.  So we have now established you have no interest in new players being introduced to the game, and come at the game thinking of them as people who simply should not be playing the game.  Because, almost by definition, a new player is just sitting down at the table (maybe with some dice) waiting to be told how to play.Your entire viewpoint seems to be drenched in that of system mastery.  You've mastered the system so the quantity of rules is not a burden for you.  You've mastered the system so it seems superior to having to work out fair answers in a rules-lite system as you go.  You've mastered the system so others should be expected to master the system as well.  Every answer you gave was from the perspective of a body of players and DMs who have already achieved long ago system mastery.  But you're commenting on a new game (so zero system mastery) and a rules lite system (you do not appear to have much current experience with such and have some unusual beliefs about them) and new players (who appear to not be considering their perspective at all).  And you're of course entitled to your perspective, but I think if it were widely shared by the 5e design team, it would be certain death for the game.</blockquote>

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