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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wulfgar76" data-source="post: 6250455" data-attributes="member: 61867">If you've never had a game bog down in 3.X/PF then that is indeed rare and miraculous. That has not been my experience as a DM for 2e, 3e, PF and 4e.First, rules bloat is intimidating to players who aren't 'system masters'. For players who love to optimize their characters it's great, and there is nothing wrong with that style of play - I've played in that style of game and its a blast. However most of my group is older casual players who not likely to read the rulebooks beyond their own class entry, and don't care about their build and being as powerful as possible. They play for the story, exploration, immersion and wild cinematic combats.Second, the issue with 3.5/PF is, even if a player is a master of the rules that pertain to his own character, the game still comes to a screeching halt when those complex rules come into play. The combat maneuver system adds additional layers of complexity to that even the smartest DM and players can't ignore. Plus, in my opinion, those additional complexity layers add nothing to the game, and more often that not wreck the simulation with some unrealistic, tiresome and usually overpowered tactic. Ex: 3.5 Spiked Chain tripping specialist. I don't see how that's possible. 4e has major problems, but nebulous clunky rules aren't one of them. Immersion suffered in 4e because the powers and mechanics were artificial to simulationists.IMO its not a DM's bad ad hoc ruling that drives people away, but a game that becomes more boring and tedious than fun. The perfect example I would point to is 1e and 2e D&D. The rules were an inconsistent mess, but people had loads of fun playing it because of the immersion and pace of play.Its not about broken things. Pathfinder was essentially a huge rebalance of 3.5 which nerfed overpowered things and buffed weak things. Yet for me, Pathfinder is still a slow tedious rules slog that bogs down early and only gets worse as you increase in level.I would say 3.5/PF is the perfect system for System Masters and Optimizers. I think players who prefer that sort of play will have less fun with D&D Next.Well I played 3rd through its entire run, and 4th through its entire run, and I don't prefer one over the other. For me, D&D Next delivers a superior gaming experience to both.</blockquote>

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