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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4864896" data-attributes="member: 18280">AFAICT, the butterfly can do 0 hp damage, and the effect be the same in 4e.You are apparently under the impression that if a party consists of 4 PCs and 2 NPCs, the NPCs cannot kill minions the way that the PCs can.  I am curious as to where I can find this in the RAW. You seem to be advocating using common sense to interpret rules.  I have a thread I'd like to see you make that claim in.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />The PCs are fighting the ogres while the NPC farmers throw rocks.  According to RAW, what happens to the ogres? They sure did, but the DM was also admonished to use common sense when determining what an effective attack was.  Indeed, pre-WotC-D&D, rules were intended as guidelines to aid the DM in making reasonable rulings.  If the rules suggest wacky things, as all rules do, but the DM adjudicates to remove the effects of those wacky things, then the system can work.  If the rules suggest wacky things, as all rules do, but the DM is not supposed to adjudicate to remove the effect of those wacky things, then large problems can ensue.I will grant you freely that playstyle is the largest determinant as to whether wacky things will occur.  Where should I look for that in the books?   If not, it is your assumption that this is an assumption of the game.  I could likewise say that, because PC gnomes didn't come out in the 1e PHB, 4e assumed that there would be no PC gnomes.  Of course, we know that to be false, and we knew (or should have known) that it was false then.  But, in the case of 4e in particular, we cannot know what the basic assumptions of the core rules are on the basis of what is currently included, because the core rules are always being expanded upon.The lamejoke butterfly might well be in the Monster Manual XXVII.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />RC</blockquote>

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