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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fuzzlewump" data-source="post: 4984323" data-attributes="member: 63214">I'm not sure I'm following you here. For the Fighter example, when I make a fighter I want someone who is cocky and arrogant and is an annoying target that enemies want to take down both to shut up and shut down physically. So I choose come and get it. I notice that it pulls enemies and allows me to attack them. That fits with my concept well, so I go with it. Narrative first, then Mechanics. Also, no need to vary justification at all. Why should I have to?I want a play a roleplaying game in which the mechanics come after the narrative. I play 4E. Either I'm in denial, and have been for the past year and a half, or something is wrong with your stereotype.I think there's a notion you're bringing up that characters following the same mathematical frameworks means that mechanics come first, but I just don't see how this is the case. Does the fact that 3E has different math and subsystems for each class, which are abstractions as well, mean that narrative comes first?On the other hand, mechanics will always be a big part of D&D. Is it especially heinous in 4E? I don't think so. If you wanted to play a Plate-wearing Wizard in 3E, you basically can't because the mechanics won't allow you (in the same way 4E won't allow you, by imposing penalties.) My narrative has been crushed by mechanics in the same way in either edition. A more free-form system would allow me this concept, but D&D is limiting by design.I think we'll have to agree to disagree, as I'm playing a little devil's advocate here anyway. My true stand is that Narrative doesn't play with Mechanics, and mechanics doesn't play with narrative. Maybe only on sundays, after church, but with strict supervision. Basically, my players do not compromise on narrative, they play whatever concept that want, then they do not compromise on mechanics, building the best character they can. One of my players is a warforged fighter wielding a mordenkrad clad in plate armor. But, he is actually a human Samurai of the Thousand Flashing Blades, wielding a katana and clad only in noble's clothing. Another is a paladin, I forget the race, but he is actually a human monk.Maybe my methods are atypical, and that's why I don't fit into your generalization, but at the end of the day, I end up with narrative coming before mechanics even while playing 4E.</blockquote>

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