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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 8590861" data-attributes="member: 6799660">There seemed to be three thrusts in the 2008 part of the thread -- 1) Wanting a charisma-booster as the ubiquitous 'charm' spell of the game, 2) wanting the spell to have different side effects (not immediately realize they've been charmed or not automatically being mad/more mad than any other manipulation (/peasants would be scared, not mad, etc.), 3) not getting why autonomy-subversion is such a big deal. The last I'm continuously amazed by, but otoh for a lot of people actually having your autonomy suborned is a pretty theoretical situation (also the whole, 'I was going to kill the bandit, instead I charmed them, how is that worse?' issue that playing violent characters also has waiting in the wings).I personally agree with my #1-- the go-to enchantment spell (particularly player-accessible one) should be a 'make me a better talker' spell. If you want to go full-bore puppetmaster (and deal with the ramifications thereof), it should really be a concerted and deliberate character arc choice, not something your Level one wizard picks up because it might be useful.So the issue is that certain spells are 2-4 levels earlier if they target bipedal tool-users (who may or may not be more or less a threat than the random jumble of fangs, claws, and tentacles that D&D monsters tend to encompass)?In my groups, the sentiment is 'at least not casually.' If being mind controlled is part of carefully cultivated horror experience, that's one thing (and people who don't run 'personal horror experience' games without care and offramp tools are setting themselves up for disaster). Just casually "the monster defeats you all by convincing you it is your childhood friend, you let it walk out of here with a pair of also-charmed villagers. You find their bones three days later*" and yeah, up in arms.*and if it were "the monster defeats you all by convincing you it is your childhood friend, you let it walk out of here with Jim and Mary's also-charmed PCs. You find their bones three days later," WOW would you never get invited back.</blockquote>

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