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Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?
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<blockquote data-quote="MoutonRustique" data-source="post: 6481100" data-attributes="member: 22362"><p>I'd not throw that around w/o explaining your meaning as, from the rest of your post, we have very, very different views on what constitutes "video game mindset".</p><p></p><p>Very well. However, I do not think -if that is what you are saying- that unpredictably deadly situations are a good idea in published modules meant for the masses.</p><p></p><p>There are a great many assumptions here. Many of those would be dangerous to generalize; it is this variant in expectation that must be dealt with in a module.</p><p></p><p>No one is saying that situations where the players can't simply go up to foe, slay them dead with little risk, and have it solve everything are a bad idea. What some object to (well, at least one person) is the treatment of the situation. For me, it is the level of information available to players. For others it is the DM gymnastics required to keep the players alive (to keep the game from stopping dead in its tracks.)</p><p></p><p>Also, and here is where my lack of understanding comes in: I've read a good many posts advocating player death as a teaching mechanic. I'm curious at what it teaches and, and this is most important, <em>whom</em> it teaches in this instance: if the character dies, the only one I can see learning is the player. If the player role played his character and it died w/o any real chance to learn first, what is learned is to meta-game. i.e. You might <em>think</em> you wanted to play a brave knight - but, you know, you should probably have your order's moto be something along the lines of : "Discretion be ith the bestest part of the valorous heart!"</p><p></p><p>Having your PC be caught in a breath attack for "I am dead" points of damage doesn't teach the character anything - it teaches the player that a 1st level character against a dragon of that size is a bad idea. There couldn't be a more meta-game thought process incurred. Having that same character suffer "Crap! I am almost dead" points of damage does teach the character to avoid such a threat in the future (as well as the player, of course.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not seeing anyone saying - <em>"that dragon was a stupid idea, there should never be a powerful dragon in a low-level adventure."</em> What I'm seeing is: there was a trap situation for which the "correct" answer was poorly conveyed OR was too strictly enforced OR there were to many assumptions that do not mesh, etc.</p><p></p><p>I understand this is probably a question of wording - but, if cannot win, you cannot win. The only thing you learn is how you deal with the death of the game. If your meaning is that you cannot win in a direct manner of simply hacking at them till they stop twitching, then we are in accord - to a point.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The idea <em>is</em> cool, its the implementation.</p><p></p><p>As for your last phrase, I can only suggest to you to very simply double ALL foes in all encounters from regular pre-made modules. It is the easiest solution I can think of to make the encounters "not super easy fights" and it adds very little work for the DM. Honestly, it might fix a great deal of what you profess to dislike about the pre-made modules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MoutonRustique, post: 6481100, member: 22362"] I'd not throw that around w/o explaining your meaning as, from the rest of your post, we have very, very different views on what constitutes "video game mindset". Very well. However, I do not think -if that is what you are saying- that unpredictably deadly situations are a good idea in published modules meant for the masses. There are a great many assumptions here. Many of those would be dangerous to generalize; it is this variant in expectation that must be dealt with in a module. No one is saying that situations where the players can't simply go up to foe, slay them dead with little risk, and have it solve everything are a bad idea. What some object to (well, at least one person) is the treatment of the situation. For me, it is the level of information available to players. For others it is the DM gymnastics required to keep the players alive (to keep the game from stopping dead in its tracks.) Also, and here is where my lack of understanding comes in: I've read a good many posts advocating player death as a teaching mechanic. I'm curious at what it teaches and, and this is most important, [I]whom[/I] it teaches in this instance: if the character dies, the only one I can see learning is the player. If the player role played his character and it died w/o any real chance to learn first, what is learned is to meta-game. i.e. You might [I]think[/I] you wanted to play a brave knight - but, you know, you should probably have your order's moto be something along the lines of : "Discretion be ith the bestest part of the valorous heart!" Having your PC be caught in a breath attack for "I am dead" points of damage doesn't teach the character anything - it teaches the player that a 1st level character against a dragon of that size is a bad idea. There couldn't be a more meta-game thought process incurred. Having that same character suffer "Crap! I am almost dead" points of damage does teach the character to avoid such a threat in the future (as well as the player, of course.) I'm not seeing anyone saying - [I]"that dragon was a stupid idea, there should never be a powerful dragon in a low-level adventure."[/I] What I'm seeing is: there was a trap situation for which the "correct" answer was poorly conveyed OR was too strictly enforced OR there were to many assumptions that do not mesh, etc. I understand this is probably a question of wording - but, if cannot win, you cannot win. The only thing you learn is how you deal with the death of the game. If your meaning is that you cannot win in a direct manner of simply hacking at them till they stop twitching, then we are in accord - to a point. The idea [I]is[/I] cool, its the implementation. As for your last phrase, I can only suggest to you to very simply double ALL foes in all encounters from regular pre-made modules. It is the easiest solution I can think of to make the encounters "not super easy fights" and it adds very little work for the DM. Honestly, it might fix a great deal of what you profess to dislike about the pre-made modules. [/QUOTE]
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