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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pilgrim" data-source="post: 5650265" data-attributes="member: 6680799">Simply put, at our table, we don't place as much emphasis on personal character gains as other groups might. For you, being able to make an Arcana roll is fun. I can understand that and good on ye, if you do. But for us, if one of the players doesn't have the proper skill, knowledge or ability to figure something out, then we look for a solution outside the characters. This usually entails hunting down an NPC, or sometimes possibly item to help out with solving the problem. This act gives the DM/GM options to add to the adventure; usually more opportunity for exploration, investigation, encounters, role-play, and whatever else. We would rather interact more with the DM/GM through this method, than simply consulting the die roll off a character sheet, it's just more fun for us that way. A lot of players like 4th edition (and Pathfinder/3.5 to a lesser degree), and I've played it for a couple years and I can understand why. 4E tailors to a specific type of play style, but not the sort of style I think benefits RPGs. The reason I say this is because it facilitates optimization, especially where combat is concerned, and this really detracts from the style of play our group really enjoys. Too often I've seen players online or at the table criticize another player or someone's character for not being as optimized as they "should be", because the player didn't have the right scores, pick the right feats, use the right weapons, etc., so that when combat takes places, they can maximize their combat potential.Now, in my opinion, it is just bad design for an RPG if more often than not, it allows one group of players to criticize another group of players because of the choices they make during character creation or advancement. To me, RPGs should be about sitting down and just having a fun time with friends or family, not worrying whether or not characters are good enough to be played at the table.This isn't to say that all groups do this, I'm sure most probably don't, but it happens often enough, that it seems to be an issue.And 4th Edition isn't the only game that does this, though I've seen it happen a lot more where I see this system being discussed. I take similar issues with both 3.5 and Pathfinder, both systems also place a heavy hand on optimizing one's character to gain a great deal of advantages while playing. There are a lot of players out there that like this sort of play style because of the freedoms and options they have, but for myself and my group, we actually find it more restrictive and less creative.</blockquote>

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