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<blockquote data-quote="Vyvyan Basterd" data-source="post: 5651735" data-attributes="member: 4892">First, you are moving the goal posts. The premise you are refuting was based on the claim that &quot;suckage&quot; provides more of an opportunity to roleplay with NPCs. The counter-argument is that there are ways the DM can still provide roleplying with those NPCs through a different avenue.Second, your premise that &quot;'suckage' can provide more of an opportunity for adventure within a game session than optimized characters&quot; is not entirely accurate IMO, either. There is no barrier to further adventure for optimized characters. There is a barrier to one particular trope, but it can open others. NPCs seeking the &quot;Arcana Man's&quot; aid could become a side adventure the DM hadn't orignally planned on. It could also be a way the player wants his character to shine by seeking out NPCs to aid with his expertise. Besides, there is very little chance, even in 4E, for an entire party to be optimized in everything. So, if you enjoy the trope of the characters seeking an NPCs aid, try to find another venue for it. If they're maxed out in Knowledges? Put a hard-to-scale mountain in their way. Then they would have to seek out a skilled mountaineer instead of a sage. Fill in the blank with Negotiator, Interrogator, etc. and you still have the trope somewhere if you really crave it.Third, your distinction between &quot;planned&quot; and &quot;unplanned&quot; weakens when you consider that it was the DM that made the script above the tomb door too difficult to read in the first place. He may not have anticipated visiting a sage, but if he knows the party well enough, he probably should have anticipated the encounter with the sage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Vyvyan Basterd, post: 5651735, member: 4892"] First, you are moving the goal posts. The premise you are refuting was based on the claim that "suckage" provides more of an opportunity to roleplay with NPCs. The counter-argument is that there are ways the DM can still provide roleplying with those NPCs through a different avenue. Second, your premise that "'suckage' can provide more of an opportunity for adventure within a game session than optimized characters" is not entirely accurate IMO, either. There is no barrier to further adventure for optimized characters. There is a barrier to one particular trope, but it can open others. NPCs seeking the "Arcana Man's" aid could become a side adventure the DM hadn't orignally planned on. It could also be a way the player wants his character to shine by seeking out NPCs to aid with his expertise. Besides, there is very little chance, even in 4E, for an entire party to be optimized in everything. So, if you enjoy the trope of the characters seeking an NPCs aid, try to find another venue for it. If they're maxed out in Knowledges? Put a hard-to-scale mountain in their way. Then they would have to seek out a skilled mountaineer instead of a sage. Fill in the blank with Negotiator, Interrogator, etc. and you still have the trope somewhere if you really crave it. Third, your distinction between "planned" and "unplanned" weakens when you consider that it was the DM that made the script above the tomb door too difficult to read in the first place. He may not have anticipated visiting a sage, but if he knows the party well enough, he probably should have anticipated the encounter with the sage. [/QUOTE]

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