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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vyvyan Basterd" data-source="post: 5656052" data-attributes="member: 4892">Your welcome.I disagree. A purely site-based sandbox may just have a setting that the players explore. But I would guess most D&D games (sorry to all who bring up BW, etc; I was only speaking towards D&D and make no assumptions of other games) have NPCs and organizations with goals and personalities to create events that occur with or without player input. "Events in a fictional work" are plot, not setting, IMO.Like I said, when I say plot I'm referring to the noun form (thus have never referred to what I do as DM as 'plotted' or 'plotting') and don't attach the meanings of any of the verb definitions because, to me, they are out of context when referring to RPGs. The connotations you and others draw is the most likely reason 'plot' is the 4-letter word it has become in regards to RPGs.I didn't mean to imply that I think our games are similar. I just think they run more similar than it seems. This thread makes it seem like each of our games is alien to the next.Clarification: Some of my campaigns have been APs, others have not.I see how my glibness makes it seem like the choices are follow the AP hooks or retire to sheep herding. What I meant was that the players still have full range of choice to do whatever they want in the campaign world. If their decisions divert from the AP, then they divert from the AP. In our case, since it is the players that expressed interest in the AP before the campaign started, it is unlikely for them to stray far from their goal.Yes.A DM could look at it that way but, IMO, he would be doing a disservice to his players if he didn't remain flexible when the players find a different way to tackle their goals. A well-written AP lays down the setting and gives the DM the villain's goals and motivations. It can anticipate how the PCs achieve their goals, but should also advise the DM on how to handle unexpected turns.I can answer best by asking a question first. In a sandbox campaign, are there hooks for the characters to follow? IME, yes. The hook could be the spooky abandoned castle on the hill, an evil organization with tyrannical dominance, etc. There could be three hooks or 100 hooks. An AP focuses on a limited number of hooks. But players could ignore those few hooks, just like they could ignore all 100 hooks you've laid out for a sandbox campaign. Maybe it's just a matter of number of options for the group?Whether a DM plans hooks in advance or on the spot during the game, the process seems much the same to me. Where the DM mines the hooks from is certainly important to the feel of the game, but I don't feel this makes it any less a plot element than the hooks in an AP.Different method, similar results. I would think that the random aspects hide in the background, otherwise it would pull players out of the game world and into dice rolls.I'm sure all of our games do feel different. Heck, each of my campaigns should feel different from one to the next as I usually change things up here or there. The similarity I see between all of our games is at the core. We've each chosen or created a game world to provide a setting. We've each chosen a method to present 'events in the fictional world' (plot). I agree that the specifics beyond that core similarity make our games unique. I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's game by equating it to everyone else's. What I'm trying to say is that, despite the differences, we can all run a game that brings core elements together in a way that our players enjoy. And, barring any poor DMing skills (hopefully not my own <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ), I think each of us would enjoy sitting down to play at the others' tables even though each of us would be unhappy running a game the way another does.Agreed.Like I said above, I can only speak for D&D in this regard. I've played other games, but they have similar philosophies on general game play. I've yet to experience newer systems that change these assumptions.Sounds similar to campaigns I've run, even when we've decided to play an AP.You don't have to be prepared, but it can't hurt.I believe that people like you who are great at winging it are actually mentally prepared for a wide range of possibilities. This is a good quality to possess. What I was trying to get at about being mentally prepared for failure is that no DM should assume that the characters will succeed.No. Because plot in the sense I'm using it is only relative to fiction. Presumably you'd agree that events in the campaign world are not real?Yes. Engaging, interesting plot? Depends on what floats one's boat.Of course! Fictional aliens are invading. Not a very deep plot, but plot nonetheless.Nope, because again, not fictional. Replace tennis with por-wrestling? Yes. [Before someone threathens to layeth the smackdown, I'm a fan.]Feel as you like, but presumably because you continue to respond you wish to communicate. And Hussar and I explaining what we mean by terms we use is not 'wothless.'I'd rather start from the common ground of "we're all playing more-or-less the same" and then discuss how we achieve a good game in discussing the differences in the ways we play. My intent is not meant as a challenge to any kind of "DM cred."The common usage of the term 'plot' does not require it to tie to the main theme.Active uses would be the verb forms, which I've already agreed do not apply.Disagree. A story with a (subjectively) bad plot is mere noise. You cannot have a story at all without plot.Setting, plot. Potato, potahto. I'm not saying you should start using the term 'plot' and I'm not going to use 'setting' in the way you do, but we mean the same thing.Not necessarily. Yes, I'll go out on a limb, sheep farming would make for a terribly boring game. But if the players decide to explore the abandoned dwarven mines instead of defending the town, the campaign need not end. The town will suffer whatever fate the DM decides is appropriate while the characters are away exploring the mine.How about "the Bloodfang Orcs are making raids on the Grimspire Mountain border towns?"To me, reactive and proactive are means to a similar end.Every game I've played, whether an AP or a sandbox, has had something deliberately added to it. Whether you place locations or events. Games may have no plot, arguably. But every RPG I've played does. It may be a matter of degree of depth, but it is there, IMO. QFT. Narrative associations are most certainly apt. You may limit your definition of narrative to an author sitting down to write alone, but I believe RPGs and the stories that develop in play are a developing narrative of their own accord and terms such as plot can be used to describe the events within that narrative.</blockquote>

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