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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WayneLigon" data-source="post: 3754744" data-attributes="member: 3649">My experiences correlate exactly to it, at least as the "15-minute adventuring day" goes. The Vancian system is a guessing game that requires you to metagame somewhat and read the GM's mind for you to attempt to maximize your ability to affect the encounters.You pick spells and hope that you have the right ones for the job. If you guess wrong, you're stuck with a boatload of useless magic until the next day. So your mage sits around and tries to hit things with a crossbow. Not fun. OR You find that you're one of the major people that can affect the encounter. UNless you're loaded up exetnsively with all-mass-damage spells, you fire off three or four of those... and you're done. For the day at lower and mid-range levels. The rest of your spells, since they are discrete packets of 'spell' instead of scalable 'powers' either have no chance of affecting the encounter or will not do an appreciable amount of damage.. and you have to save some for the next thing and the next thing.Two things now happen; either you spent your best spells in the encounter, or you saved them, hoping against hope that something else will utilize your strengths. That isn't really strategizing, it's guessing. At some point, though, the Vancian system means you'll be using that crossbow if the party keeps on going and having encounters. No-one wants to use the crossbow. You picked a wizard because you like tossing around flaming death or penetrating the minds of others, not playing a +0-BAB rogue.So eventually (especially when you have a part that's heavy in spellcasters) the players are going to say 'OK, we go back to town' after the first room or two when they are out of their best spells. The problem actually increases at higher levels, because so much of what you have becomes useless due to high saves and SR and other factors. By the time you're 12th level, that first couple levels of spells might as well go away. And where do you have your greatest magic potential? Right: in the first couple levels of spells.You can say 'NO, you keep going'. And the players will either say 'To heck with you, we're leaving' or hand you the character sheets since apparently you know what's best for the PC's than they do. Short game or no players. No fun for anyone.Getting to do something fun every round isn't possible with the Vancian system and people are finally, finally starting to realize this and that is is possible to have just as much fun as the fighter or rogue - all that needs to change is the system.</blockquote>

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