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<blockquote data-quote="thecasualoblivion" data-source="post: 6865015" data-attributes="member: 59096">Your assessment of 4E is accurate, but for the wrong reasons. 4E's issues multiplied at higher levels, and there were two main factors:1. The higher level you go in 4E, the greater the impact of system mastery. Unoptimized PCs in 4E would defeat enemies more slowly and hence grind. The power of optimization in 4E multiplied as you level up, so optimized PCs were more powerful for their level then they were at lower levels. For an optimized party, the higher in level they got the harder they were to challenge. Optimized 4E epic tier PCs were almost impossible to merely hassle much less endanger, without upping the challenge to the point where the game slowed to a crawl. This really started showing well before epic, in low paragon around level 13.2. The math of the original game was changed. In the original game, monsters had higher defenses and attack rolls than the PCs did. This made the challenge a bit more fair, but tended to result in grind and a lot of players were bothered by the number disparity in paper. The game math changed with expertise and the other math fix feats, while they increased monster damage. This sped the game up but really took the challenge out of high level play. 4E's original math led to grind but got the challenge more or less ok. The updated math didn't add up.For optimized play, which was what I played, I'd call the sweet spot of 4E to be 2-13(level 2 was the biggest power jump of any single level in the game). 14+ is less broken than outside the sweet spot in other editions, but things got messier to a noticeable degree.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="thecasualoblivion, post: 6865015, member: 59096"] Your assessment of 4E is accurate, but for the wrong reasons. 4E's issues multiplied at higher levels, and there were two main factors: 1. The higher level you go in 4E, the greater the impact of system mastery. Unoptimized PCs in 4E would defeat enemies more slowly and hence grind. The power of optimization in 4E multiplied as you level up, so optimized PCs were more powerful for their level then they were at lower levels. For an optimized party, the higher in level they got the harder they were to challenge. Optimized 4E epic tier PCs were almost impossible to merely hassle much less endanger, without upping the challenge to the point where the game slowed to a crawl. This really started showing well before epic, in low paragon around level 13. 2. The math of the original game was changed. In the original game, monsters had higher defenses and attack rolls than the PCs did. This made the challenge a bit more fair, but tended to result in grind and a lot of players were bothered by the number disparity in paper. The game math changed with expertise and the other math fix feats, while they increased monster damage. This sped the game up but really took the challenge out of high level play. 4E's original math led to grind but got the challenge more or less ok. The updated math didn't add up. For optimized play, which was what I played, I'd call the sweet spot of 4E to be 2-13(level 2 was the biggest power jump of any single level in the game). 14+ is less broken than outside the sweet spot in other editions, but things got messier to a noticeable degree. [/QUOTE]

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