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<blockquote data-quote="Jedi_Solo" data-source="post: 2910475" data-attributes="member: 40245">Yes.&nbsp; The fact that it is a cliche means nothing about if the statement is valid or not.&nbsp; A cliche can be good or bad.&nbsp; It can be neither or be both good and bad at the same time.The 'surprise twist' in a movie that you know is coming an hour before hand is typically bad or the sudden 'revelation' that &quot;The Killer is in the house!!11!&quot; can actually be what puts you to sleep.&nbsp; In contrast, when you see a Zorro or James Bond movie there are certain events you &quot;know&quot; are going to happen.&nbsp; I'm guessing I can state a few big events and action sequences that will happen in the Superman movie coming out this week simply because it is a Superman movie.&nbsp; But would they really be a Zorro, Bond or Superman movie if these events did NOT happen?Getting back to the topic of the thread...Where I am coming from:Min-Maxer:&nbsp; A player that centers, stat-wise, in one area of the character (combat, social, spell save DCs, etc.) to the detriment of other areas of the character.&nbsp; Not inherently a bad thing.Powergamer: Almost the exact same thing as a min-maxer though almost exclusively referring to the players that min-max for combat. Not inherently a bad thing.Munchkin: A min-maxer (usually a powergamer) that 'powers-up' his character that bends or breaks the rules of the game.&nbsp; The really annoying ones being players being ones that find loopholes in the ruleset that allows them the benefits that, while obviously going against the spirit of the rules, do not actually break the rules thus requireing DM/GM intervention to 'block the combo'.&nbsp; Inherently a bad thing.There isn't anything wrong with min-maxing as long as they don't bend/break the rules.&nbsp; There is nothing wrong with having a half-orc barabarian that crushes skulls to the best of his ability.&nbsp; There may be something wrong with a druid that worships a specific deity in order to be able to wear a certain type of armor and being a certain race for X benefit when said race usually doesn't worship said deity (depends on backstory and campaign - it could be a munchkin or it could be really cool set-up for the DM to have fun with).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jedi_Solo, post: 2910475, member: 40245"] Yes. The fact that it is a cliche means nothing about if the statement is valid or not. A cliche can be good or bad. It can be neither or be both good and bad at the same time. The 'surprise twist' in a movie that you know is coming an hour before hand is typically bad or the sudden 'revelation' that "The Killer is in the house!!11!" can actually be what puts you to sleep. In contrast, when you see a Zorro or James Bond movie there are certain events you "know" are going to happen. I'm guessing I can state a few big events and action sequences that will happen in the Superman movie coming out this week simply because it is a Superman movie. But would they really be a Zorro, Bond or Superman movie if these events did NOT happen? Getting back to the topic of the thread... Where I am coming from: Min-Maxer: A player that centers, stat-wise, in one area of the character (combat, social, spell save DCs, etc.) to the detriment of other areas of the character. Not inherently a bad thing. Powergamer: Almost the exact same thing as a min-maxer though almost exclusively referring to the players that min-max for combat. Not inherently a bad thing. Munchkin: A min-maxer (usually a powergamer) that 'powers-up' his character that bends or breaks the rules of the game. The really annoying ones being players being ones that find loopholes in the ruleset that allows them the benefits that, while obviously going against the spirit of the rules, do not actually break the rules thus requireing DM/GM intervention to 'block the combo'. Inherently a bad thing. There isn't anything wrong with min-maxing as long as they don't bend/break the rules. There is nothing wrong with having a half-orc barabarian that crushes skulls to the best of his ability. There may be something wrong with a druid that worships a specific deity in order to be able to wear a certain type of armor and being a certain race for X benefit when said race usually doesn't worship said deity (depends on backstory and campaign - it could be a munchkin or it could be really cool set-up for the DM to have fun with). [/QUOTE]

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