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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6066664" data-attributes="member: 177">Fair enough.I'll avoid going too far into specifics at this moment, but I think Jameson here is not too far off the mark.Whatever your actual desires, a bunch of you are coming across rather like your main motivation for being in the discussion is to be Right, and that anyone with an alternative take on it is Wrong.  This no longer reads like a discussion, but like an argument.  It looks like it is not about learning from others, but is instead about winning and losing. When a conversation drifts into that realm, there's a tendency for everyone to start getting rude.  To be honest, those of you who are trying to prove "There Is NO Grittyness In D&D" seem the rather more aggressive and dismissive - your argument is the more exclusionary one, as you are arguing *against* something, rather than for something.Here's my advice - stop what you are doing.  Assume, instead, that in some sense, *everybody* in the discussion is actually 100% correct, at least from their perspectives.  The folks who can't find gritty play in D&D's mechanics, honestly cannot find gritty play in D&D's mechanics.  Those who have found it easy and supported - it *is* there, even if you cannot see how.  Add on top that nobody here is terminally stupid or unobservant.With that assumption, the discussion should be more about what in the other person's perspective makes things work (or not work).  It can be more about learning how the game can function for players who aren't you, and less about how the other guy is wrongity-wrong-wrong, with wrong sauce.</blockquote>

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