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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 3147685" data-attributes="member: 42582">Li Shenron (and Ridley's cohort), I'm in broad agreement. I also feel your pain at getting answers to your question which already presuppose the current spell descriptions (built around SR) and imposes a particular flavour interpretation onto the current mechanics which is not even consistent (as the Dwarf example shows).I also think the suggestion that Saving Throws need to be kept distinct, because they apply to things other than magic, is a bit of a red herring. At high levels where SR tends to kick in, it's not as if monsters are having to make a heap of saves against poison, pit traps etc. And when it comes to non-magical abilities like Stunning Fist, there's no obvious balance reason why SR should not apply to this, but should apply to spell-caster class abilities that produce the identical effect. Furthermore, if SR was dropped, than the distinction between Supernatural abilities, Spell-like abilities and Spells would become a lot clearer (and I think the first two categories could in fact be collapsed, couldn't they?). Likewise, as Lukelightning said, the artificial Conjuration/Evocation distinction could be cleaned up (acording to the SRD, Conjuration  "brings manifestations of . . . energy to you" or "creates . . . effects on the spot" while Evocation "manipulate<s> energy to produce a desired end . . . [and] create something out of nothing".- what's the difference?).</s><s></s><s>Two well-known fantasy games which do not have SR, but rely simply on Resistance Rolls (= Saving Throws, in D&D terms) are Rolemasater and Runequest. Do these games suffer from their lack of SR? Not in my experience.</s><s></s><s>What is interesting about this sort of question (ie why SR?) is that draws attention to further odd features of the D&D ruleset. For example, when it comes to modelling the ability to avoid or ignore damage, we have:</s><s></s><s>* Hit Points, which go up with level not because high-level people are beefier, but because they avoid fatal blows, turning them into mere nicks;</s><s></s><s>* DR/-, which reflects the ability to shrug off what might otherwise be fatal damage;</s><s></s><s>* DEX, which adds to AC because it reflects the ability to dodge what might otherwise be a fatal blow;</s><s></s><s>* Armour and Shield bonuses to AC, which reflect the fact that armour protects from what might otherwise be fatal blows;</s><s></s><s>* Reflex saves, which reflect the ability to avoid what might otherwise be fatal damage;</s><s></s><s>* Evasion and Improved Evasion, which are a further escape mechanic sitting on top of Reflex saves (these originated in 1st ed to protect Monks from the consequences of low hit points in the face of fireballs or breath weapons, and have been generalised from that origin in D&D3);</s><s></s><s>* Tumbling skill, which (when moving through threatended squares) relects the ability to dodge what might otherwise be fatal blows.</s><s></s><s>There's no denying that having so many variable to model the same ability allows for complexity in monster and character design. But it does give rise to doubts as to whether any coherent interpretation of that design in anything like real-world terms is possible. And it is not an obvious virtue in a rule-set to model the same thing in so many different ways - for a start, it makes mechanical balance that much harder to achieve. </s><s></s><s>I think the same is true with SR. What it models - given that if protects against Magic Missile, or Scorching Ray, but not Acid Arrow, although all three are simply spells that fire energy missiles at their targets - is far from clear. What mechanical benefit it offers is also not at all clear.</s></blockquote>

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