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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 5885253" data-attributes="member: 5143">Which kind of makes my point.  No one cares about the Vancian system.  They care that spells aren't written like 4e.Here's a hypothetical: 5e instead gives you the entire list of 1st level dailies in a vancian fashion for Wizards.  Then they add the entire list of Arcana and non-skill based Rituals from level 1 to 4 and make them all 1st level dailies that you can prepare instead of any of your normal dailies.  Then they change the casting time of all 10 minute or less rituals to 3 rounds.  Then remove the component cost for any ritual that currently costs less than 20gp per level of the ritual(leaving the ones that are supposed to be expensive still have a cost).  Then do the same for 5-8th level rituals to become 2nd level spells, 9th-12th become 3rd and so on.This means you still get the variety of a vancian system, choosing between utility and combat spells, without making utility spells break combat(since 3 rounds is too long to make most of them viable in combat without some planning and protecting the wizard).A number of these spells are EXTREMELY combat capable depending on your DM.  Which is my real problem with them."Hey, Mr DM, I create an image of the typical food of the creature.  Every time the creature attempts to hit it, the image jumps out of the way.  Since it had virtually no intelligence it doesn't get a chance to disbelieve or think it's an illusion.  It doesn't even know what illusions are.  Every time we attack, I'll have the illusion leap up and attack the same spot so he'll think it's the illusion attacking.  Also, in combat, who do you think it's going to attack, its favorite food or us?  Perfect.  My spell has negated all damage done by the enemy."Some DMs will say "No, that's stupid.  I'm not letting you use a first level illusion spell to negate more damage than a 9th level actual combat spell."  Some will say "Awesome, since you are being so creative with your illusion spells, I will reward you by having it succeed and the monster never attacks you."Out of combat their power can increase to almost limitless levels.  With a couple of low level illusions., some creativity, and a DM who goes along with stuff, you could nearly conquer the entire world.:  Invisibility to sneak past guards, illusions to look like important people or charms to make important people do whatever you want them to.  Soon entire armies and kingdoms are at your command and it doesn't take much more than 3rd level spells to do it.Certainly there should be some cost for these extremely powerful abilities that isn't "I need to wait until tomorrow to continue my plot, since I have no more charm spells today".  I don't mind some sort of gold cost for these sorts of abilities...though it needs to be lower than 4e.  They went overboard.Most of the drawbacks could be worked around so they were non-existent:I'm a elf...1 year of my life?  Let me know if I cast it over 900 times.Wish was and still is a stupid spell, because its text basically said "Your DM should make whatever you say hurt you badly.  But feel free to wish for anything you want."  If you worded it correctly, it could give you the power of a god(and your DM was nice) if you didn't, casting it meant the death of your entire party.  Without the safe options, Wishing for lunch would often get you killed.  No one in their right mind ever cast it.Spells being able to be dispelled isn't a drawback, that just makes them spells like anything else.  Against non-casters or in low magic worlds it isn't a drawback in the slightest.  And in most games, that's 95% of encounters.  I understand that some DMs have worked around this issue by making nearly 100% of encounters against casters and given every guard in existence the ability to dispel magic and see invisibility.  But in most games, it means "If one of the 3 wizards who lives in this city casts a dispel on you, it'll suck.  Luckily only one of them is high enough level to cast it and he works at the brewery making beer."</blockquote>

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