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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Why is the Vancian system still so popular?
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<blockquote data-quote="Eldritch_Lord" data-source="post: 5892355" data-attributes="member: 52073"><p>It does indeed. I object to the barbarian's rage being daily, Stunning Fist's uses being daily, and other martial mechanics being daily just as much as 4e daily resources. Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, the monk's Wholeness of Body, and similar are magical abilities, so while I object to them being daily on mechanical grounds because they're too weak for daily abilities and should probably be per-encounter or per-hour or the like, the flavor supports them being limited in use. There are a few differences between the two that are important to note, though.</p><p></p><p>1) In 3e, the number of uses of rage, Stunning Fist, etc. are variable: they increase with level, you can take feats to get more, and they all use a different pool. This means that there isn't a hard cap on uses per day, you can have same-level characters with different numbers of uses of their abilities, and so forth. Repeatability of a particular schtick is helpful for making daily mechanics more tolerable.</p><p></p><p>2) Not everyone has daily resources. If you want to be someone who has his best tools with him at all times, you can be a fighter or ranger. If you want to be someone who can pull out the big guns, you can be a barbarian or paladin. While, again, this is bad for mechanical reasons (having a resource management system is better than not having one for power, flexibility, and creativity), it allows people who don't like daily resources to play without them.</p><p></p><p>So while I don't particularly like martial daily powers in any edition, if 5e <em>has</em> to base martial abilities on daily uses, I'd prefer a 3e-esque implementation over a 4e-esque implementation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I also mentioned before, many systems are good at approximating/abstracting their mechanics in a way that supports their chosen flavor. ToB martial maneuvers are better at mimicking the ebb and flow of combat than 4e encounter exploits because you can recover them later, so the explanation "I need the right opening" actually works--if you're facing someone helpless you can keep using the same maneuver on them, if someone is open for a round because they're stunned or dazed you can take the opportunity to recover maneuvers, and so forth, whereas 4e encounter powers are one-shot deals. Barbarian rages are better at mimicking fatigue than 4e daily powers, as the explanation "I get tired after using them" actually makes sense--you become fatigued after each rage, which generally penalizes you, and you can't rage again while fatigued.</p><p></p><p>Resource systems can be tweaked to make them more or less coherent, and to make them fit a particular flavor better. Making all exploits in 4e [reliable] would make them fit the "need an opening" explanation better, and allowing some sort of in-combat recharge would do this as well. Allowing you to re-use an exploit at the cost of some fatigue penalty would make them fit the "wears you out" explanation better. If all daily exploits are [reliable], they're not actually strictly daily powers, since you can use them as much as you want until they work; the reliable keyword was a step in the right direction, but not quite enough, and the fact that they could only <em>work</em> once a day is still a sticking point.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Eldritch_Lord, post: 5892355, member: 52073"] It does indeed. I object to the barbarian's rage being daily, Stunning Fist's uses being daily, and other martial mechanics being daily just as much as 4e daily resources. Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, the monk's Wholeness of Body, and similar are magical abilities, so while I object to them being daily on mechanical grounds because they're too weak for daily abilities and should probably be per-encounter or per-hour or the like, the flavor supports them being limited in use. There are a few differences between the two that are important to note, though. 1) In 3e, the number of uses of rage, Stunning Fist, etc. are variable: they increase with level, you can take feats to get more, and they all use a different pool. This means that there isn't a hard cap on uses per day, you can have same-level characters with different numbers of uses of their abilities, and so forth. Repeatability of a particular schtick is helpful for making daily mechanics more tolerable. 2) Not everyone has daily resources. If you want to be someone who has his best tools with him at all times, you can be a fighter or ranger. If you want to be someone who can pull out the big guns, you can be a barbarian or paladin. While, again, this is bad for mechanical reasons (having a resource management system is better than not having one for power, flexibility, and creativity), it allows people who don't like daily resources to play without them. So while I don't particularly like martial daily powers in any edition, if 5e [I]has[/I] to base martial abilities on daily uses, I'd prefer a 3e-esque implementation over a 4e-esque implementation. As I also mentioned before, many systems are good at approximating/abstracting their mechanics in a way that supports their chosen flavor. ToB martial maneuvers are better at mimicking the ebb and flow of combat than 4e encounter exploits because you can recover them later, so the explanation "I need the right opening" actually works--if you're facing someone helpless you can keep using the same maneuver on them, if someone is open for a round because they're stunned or dazed you can take the opportunity to recover maneuvers, and so forth, whereas 4e encounter powers are one-shot deals. Barbarian rages are better at mimicking fatigue than 4e daily powers, as the explanation "I get tired after using them" actually makes sense--you become fatigued after each rage, which generally penalizes you, and you can't rage again while fatigued. Resource systems can be tweaked to make them more or less coherent, and to make them fit a particular flavor better. Making all exploits in 4e [reliable] would make them fit the "need an opening" explanation better, and allowing some sort of in-combat recharge would do this as well. Allowing you to re-use an exploit at the cost of some fatigue penalty would make them fit the "wears you out" explanation better. If all daily exploits are [reliable], they're not actually strictly daily powers, since you can use them as much as you want until they work; the reliable keyword was a step in the right direction, but not quite enough, and the fact that they could only [I]work[/I] once a day is still a sticking point. [/QUOTE]
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