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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8030569" data-attributes="member: 29398">The odds of that in fact happening are about the same as those of surviving a 1500' fall on to rocks, i.e. miniscule at best.In my game any ray spell needs a roll for aim, any AoE spell needs a roll for aim, any touch spell needs a roll to hit if the target is in melee or otherwise hard to reach (unless the caster is also the target, but that'd be odd as casting in melee is nigh impossible); and all of these can be - and occasionally, spectacularly, have been - fumbled.And also more likely to crit, for what it's worth, though in either case it's a false premise.On any given roll the odds of critting or fumbling are, barring external factors, exactly the same as on any other roll.&nbsp; On that basis, the odds of fumbling never change.Now if you want to aggregate it and look at the odds of fumbling per day or per adventure you can (and it seems that's what you're doing), but doing so gives a faulty sense of the odds of fumbling increasing where in fact they do not.Everyone equally.&nbsp; In my view there's times when hit points will prevent or delay death and other times when they won't.The 'class feature' is that in situations where hit points do help, those classes have more of 'em. Going over the side of a 1500' cliff is not one of those situations.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8030569, member: 29398"] The odds of that in fact happening are about the same as those of surviving a 1500' fall on to rocks, i.e. miniscule at best. In my game any ray spell needs a roll for aim, any AoE spell needs a roll for aim, any touch spell needs a roll to hit if the target is in melee or otherwise hard to reach (unless the caster is also the target, but that'd be odd as casting in melee is nigh impossible); and all of these can be - and occasionally, spectacularly, have been - fumbled. And also more likely to crit, for what it's worth, though in either case it's a false premise. On any given roll the odds of critting or fumbling are, barring external factors, exactly the same as on any other roll. On that basis, the odds of fumbling never change. Now if you want to aggregate it and look at the odds of fumbling per day or per adventure you can (and it seems that's what you're doing), but doing so gives a faulty sense of the odds of fumbling increasing where in fact they do not. Everyone equally. In my view there's times when hit points will prevent or delay death and other times when they won't. The 'class feature' is that in situations where hit points [B]do[/B] help, those classes have more of 'em. Going over the side of a 1500' cliff is not one of those situations. [/QUOTE]

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