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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8035664" data-attributes="member: 29398">Rulings not rules, old chap. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Here, a DM could (and IMO should) give the sleeping target a longshot roll (say, 20 on a d20) to just by chance happen to wake up as the attacker approaches (the odds here could be improved, perhaps greatly, if the attacker fails to be sneaky in approaching the target).&nbsp; If this roll succeeds then it's initiative as normal and away you go.&nbsp; But if this roll fails then I'd say the attacker gets a free attack before ever entering initiative, and that this free attack has at least some chance (maybe, say, by rolling 10 higher than needed to hit) of bypassing hit points and going straight to kill.And people can't really sleep in any armour heavier than leather, thus the target is almost certainly lightly armoured if at all.Silly question, but if the target can't attack first even if it wins initiative then why bother rolling at all at that point?&nbsp; The attacker's first attack is a freebie, and then init comes in.No, of course not.&nbsp; All the special stuff only applies to the attacker's first swing, with a very unlikely (but also very possible!) exception where the attacker misses so badly that the target sleeps right through it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8035664, member: 29398"] Rulings not rules, old chap. :) Here, a DM could (and IMO should) give the sleeping target a longshot roll (say, 20 on a d20) to just by chance happen to wake up as the attacker approaches (the odds here could be improved, perhaps greatly, if the attacker fails to be sneaky in approaching the target). If this roll succeeds then it's initiative as normal and away you go. But if this roll fails then I'd say the attacker gets a free attack before ever entering initiative, and that this free attack has at least some chance (maybe, say, by rolling 10 higher than needed to hit) of bypassing hit points and going straight to kill. And people can't really sleep in any armour heavier than leather, thus the target is almost certainly lightly armoured if at all. Silly question, but if the target can't attack first even if it wins initiative then why bother rolling at all at that point? The attacker's first attack is a freebie, and then init comes in. No, of course not. All the special stuff only applies to the attacker's first swing, with a very unlikely (but also very possible!) exception where the attacker misses so badly that the target sleeps right through it. [/QUOTE]

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