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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Justice and Rule" data-source="post: 9347702" data-attributes="member: 6778210">Ah cool, like to know that this works in a particular set of circumstances and not most of them. Again, if we have to get very specific, that's not exactly the "practice" as much as "what we need to get it to work".I think you mean "Not forgoing", as that means to not do something.FOB can be stronger or weaker depending on level, but as you go up the numbers go up and even then we're talking about a game of damage. The Monk has defensive options, but the best one is to not be there when things are going down, in which case sometimes Disengage can be the play, but also simply running away and taking a single hit can be enough, especially when high-level monks can have enough speed to outpace a lot of foes.Yeah, but that's a risk with anything. You use Patient Defense and someone hits you through your dodge, does that suddenly negate the strategy of the move? It's always a risk that what you do doesn't work, so trying to frame on the idea that it doesn't work misses the return on when it does, especially with multiple chances. Stunning strike has game-changing returns.Okay, and...? Typically I find it harder to find two mooks who aren't close together because, generally, they are trying to get in on you (unless they are ranged combatants or something, but that's a whole different set of strategy decisions). Suffice to say that I don't really find that to be much a hindrance.Yeah, but all those can work with Flurry of Blows. If you cast Hex, Flurry of Blows is great because more potential hits means more potential damage through the Hex die, and as an added bonus you can get knock-on effects for certain subclasses/styles: Hex on the Open Hand Monk with Flurry of Blows is awesome because once Hexed I can use it to knock them down by giving them Disadvantage on Athletics or Acrobatics checks (since Shoves are a check and not a save).Patient Defense might beat those actions, but again we are talking about high-level enemies typically with very large to-hit bonuses. Dodge becomes less useful as you pass the modified AC10 threshold. This isn't to say that it isn't good, but I'm not sure it's nearly as automatic as you make it out to be. I find that in 5E, people get hit way more than they don't even with Disadvantage, and with lower hit points it's not necessarily a sure thing.This isn't that, I'm simply pointing out the power through very basic synergy. The effects of Stunned are absolutely massive and while you can try to write it off as situational, the stuff I'm mentioning is pretty common party teamwork.... Why aren't we using Attack/FOB/Move away? Yes, you'll invite an Attack of Opportunity, but if we max that out, even using a Jaws attack that's still going to be roughly the same amount as dodging for significantly more damage caused. Like, if I'm calculating this right (you're taking the average damage and then multiplying it by the likelihood of hitting, correct?) so, that'd make the DPR on a Attack/FOB/Move to around 63 DPR for the Dragon compared to 48 DPR for you, right? The Dragon has 256 Hit Points, so that's almost a fifth of its HP on your turn for... just over a third of yours if you move out (133+10 for a Con mod of +2).But you also have a DC19 save for your Stunning Strike and he's saving on a DC6 with his +13 Con Save. You put 4 attempts in there and they're either wasting Legendaries or (if they are down one or two) you might well stun them. It could fail, but I'm not going to be doing 20 rounds of dodging, especially against a BBEG. And this is just a white-box with no other party members in support.And that last part is really part of the value of FOB and other things: if you are alone, then dodging is more optimal because you are taking all the fire. But with 3 other party members there, that won't be the case. We shouldn't simply look at it like that when we assess the value of FOB.Yes, but it's hardly a tank, either. The monk is more of a striker hybrid, someone who has interesting defense options but is still very vulnerable to being hit even if they don't want to be. At the end it's causing decent enough damage with its hits, but more than that are the things it can do around those hits.I mean, that would depend on the Monk, wouldn't it? Drunken Masters naturally get a Disengage with their FOB. Open Hand their push/trip tied to their FOB. More than that, the way the Ki Pool is built is uneven across different subclasses to where it's easy for certain subclasses to Nova effectively while a few others are really ki-dependent (hello, Way of the 4 Elements).Again, this is why I wanted to move away from large pools, make more actions just actions and save big flashy things for spending a more limited resource so that spending ki was something special rather than something automatic. Spending the few early points you have on dodging instead of anything else is not exactly a stirring defense of the class and I'd say that it's already costed well as taking away other Bonus Actions. Same with Disengage. Hell, at this point I feel like you've successfully argued that for Flurry of Blows!</blockquote>

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