Why isn't base attack a skill?

[JoeGKushner]

Simple enough question right? Even in games I've seen where hit points were random like Rolemaster Standard System, your attack ability may have gotten a bonus based on your profession, but it was still a skill.

Wouldn't making it a core skill for fighting style classes and a cross class skill for most other classes keep the general flow? It would also encourage multi-classing as you could still buy up a skill once you multi-classed into it like you can with other skills as maximum skill is based on total character level, not total class level.

 

[Warbringer]

I'd say it isn't a skill to stop power-gaming rogues into the the best fighters.

To have BAB as a skill (which is really what it is) would have required skills to be treated differently, proabaly as "combat skills" and "non-combat skills"...

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I would guess that it is due to "role" control.

a) It is more difficult to maintain the three levels of combat (1/level, 2/3 levels and 1/2 levels) with a skill system. Instead, you end up with many levels of combat (could affect CR).

b) To add this as a skill, more skill points have to be granted to the different classes. This allows those classes to take more skills instead of combat skill, which could affect the balance that was sought.

c) The Level+3 limit allows for an additional attack bonus without any balance being made on the defense side (this could affect CR).

Just a few thoughts...

 

[Dog Moon]

Originally posted by JoeGKushner
Wouldn't making it a core skill for fighting style classes and a cross class skill for most other classes keep the general flow? It would also encourage multi-classing as you could still buy up a skill once you multi-classed into it like you can with other skills as maximum skill is based on total character level, not total class level.

Only if feats like the 3.0 Cosmopolitan don't work for it. Skill is treated as a class skill and gives a +2 bonus in it. That would be pretty buff at 1st level cause you'd then have +6 BA at first level. And wouldn't that mean you'd get a second attack already? And Skill Focus (BA) would add another +3, assuming that also worked.

And yeah, it is too easy to simply put in a level of fighter and up the skill to its maximum every once in a while.

 

[kenobi65]

If you made it a skill, under the current skill rules, it makes you either (a) a fighter (class skill), or (b) not a fighter (cross-class).

The BAB system is a little more granular: you have (a) good fighters (1/1 BAB progression, like fighters and rangers), (b) fair fighters (3/4 BAB progression, like clerics and rogues), and (c) poor fighters (1/2 BAB progression, like wizards).

And, as Warbringer points out, it'd seem to be very easy to make skill-point-heavy classes, like Rogues, fighting machines. They wouldn't mind spending 2 skill points for one rank of "Fight", because they get so many skill points. And, if they take a single level in Fighter, "Fight" becomes a class skill for them, which they can max out to (level+3) ranks. Do you *really* want a Fighter 8 and a Fighter 1 / Rogue 7 to have the exact same "Fight" skill modifier?

 

[the Jester]

I have considered doing something like this for a rules variant, but have never seriously examined the idea for flaws. This thread should be useful.

 

[DanMcS]

Simple enough question right? Even in games I've seen where hit points were random like Rolemaster Standard System, your attack ability may have gotten a bonus based on your profession, but it was still a skill.

Wouldn't making it a core skill for fighting style classes and a cross class skill for most other classes keep the general flow? It would also encourage multi-classing as you could still buy up a skill once you multi-classed into it like you can with other skills as maximum skill is based on total character level, not total class level.

It's the Notice/Stealth/combining skills problem. As a single skill, BAB or BDB is likely to be entirely too useful. It is rolled at least once per round in a combat, compared to spot, which is rolled once, versus hide, to determine surprise. Since it is so frequently used, it's much more valuable than other skills. Look at MnM, which has BAB and BDB as 2pp/rank, where 1 pp buys 4 skill ranks.

Rather than rebalance the entire skill system to fix this one last anomaly, they made it a slightly separate subsystem so you don't have a problem with rogues being better fighters than fighters. It helps balance classes.

Basically, when you make combat ability a skill like all the others, you've completely moved over to a point-buy system, and they didn't want to do that in D&D.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, it wouldn't be a complete point buy system as that's what Rolemaster does and Rolemaster, if I'm correct here, it's been a while, uses broad categories and then specific categories so you might be okay with one handed edge weapons, but be really fantastic with long swords.

It'd be more similiar to a craft, knowledge, or profession skill I'm thinking in that multiple points would need to be spent for multiple purposes.

As far as the higher initial results, yes, that could be somewhat problematic, but at the same time, one of the things I've heard people HATE, with like black burning venmon, is that a 1st level character is so useless that he might as well hide in the sewer and kill giant rats until 4th level. Not that I necessarily agree with that mind you as I think you'd need to take away hit bonuses from things like strength and dexterity, they can say effect damage by making a blow strike harder or hit more accurately, but if a character with 20 stregnth gets no benefit from it to hit, what's wrong with having a +4 bab at 1st level?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Post deleted by moderator

Man, I didn't know Hero, GURPS, Tri-Stat, Rolemaster and so many other games sucked.

Thank you for your clever insights and witty looks into a designer's mind. I appreciate it!

 

[Hammerhead]

Thanks!