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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8653094" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Good post.However, while objective objects are a part of it for sure (just like objective rules technology and TTRPG engine design and system archetecture are effectively &quot;objects&quot;), they are only a very limited part of the picture.Where it gets complex is the personal proprioception component + the huge differential in body indices + cognitive disposition and morale (unique ability to process information from the ground and on the wall + courage and will are a HUGE and distinctive components of climbing) + how all of this integrates within the closed and complex system of a person (along with the physical objects...which are a dizzying array of kit and hold variety and technique variety and face/pitch variety) to create a very unique orientation to any given obstacle for an individual climber.EDIT - &nbsp;Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...yeah....yeah they have.&nbsp; Maybe not in this thread exactly but in the ENWorld community at large (including verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry recently...including the thread that spawned this one...of which you were involved in so you either bore witness to it there or you skipped past it) its hugely prolific!And my post was a testimonial disputing that this is the exclusive sub-group that it is useful for (or even approaching exclusive).It is hugely useful for utter novices who have no exposure to the jargon or the craft the jargon/critical lens supports.Brazillian JijJitsu is even much more of a potent example than climbing is (its just that I started BJJ over 20 years ago so the example is less meaningful to me).&nbsp; The amount of jargon and body language for BJJ that has to be humbly accepted and synthesized makes these TTRPG jargon culture wars (and that is what they are) a joke by comparison.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8653094, member: 6696971"] Good post. However, while objective objects are a part of it for sure (just like objective rules technology and TTRPG engine design and system archetecture are effectively "objects"), they are only a very limited part of the picture. Where it gets complex is the personal proprioception component + the huge differential in body indices + cognitive disposition and morale (unique ability to process information from the ground and on the wall + courage and will are a HUGE and distinctive components of climbing) + how all of this integrates within the closed and complex system of a person (along with the physical objects...which are a dizzying array of kit and hold variety and technique variety and face/pitch variety) to create a very unique orientation to any given obstacle for an individual climber. EDIT - Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...yeah....yeah they have. Maybe not in this thread exactly but in the ENWorld community at large (including verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry recently...including the thread that spawned this one...of which you were involved in so you either bore witness to it there or you skipped past it) its hugely prolific! And my post was a testimonial disputing that this is the exclusive sub-group that it is useful for (or even approaching exclusive). It is hugely useful for utter novices who have no exposure to the jargon or the craft the jargon/critical lens supports. Brazillian JijJitsu is even much more of a potent example than climbing is (its just that I started BJJ over 20 years ago so the example is less meaningful to me). The amount of jargon and body language for BJJ that has to be humbly accepted and synthesized makes these TTRPG jargon culture wars (and that is what they are) a joke by comparison. [/QUOTE]

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