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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8655231" data-attributes="member: 42582">I'm not sure how the stakes can change entails don't even know the stakes.Do you mean don't even know the final stakes?Anyway, the way I set the level and complexity is by deciding how big a deal I think it should be, in play. That's part of the job of a 4e GM: to make those sorts of decisions about pacing. It's the out-of-combat analogue of deciding whether a given creature/NPC should be represented as a minion or not.I don't follow this at all. I posted two examples of play. In both the players decided what they wanted to achieve, and that was what led into a skill challenge. How are you imagining that players, having decided what they want to achieve, don't know what they want to achieved?Can you elaborate on that? In the examples posted, a player decides to make a Nature check to calm a bear using Ghost Sounds to soothe it; a player decides to make a point by using a (concealed) Bedevilling Burst to upset some desserts; a player decides to try and pressure (bully?) a NPC into revealing himself, by his PC addressing him by his Goblin rather than Common name, and another player decides to double down on that; a player decides to remove a point of pressure (the socially weak Derrik) by (in character) suggesting that they go take a leak; etc.What control do you see the GM exercising?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8655231, member: 42582"] I'm not sure how [i]the stakes can change[/i] entails [i]don't even know the stakes[/i]. Do you mean [i]don't even know the [u]final[/u] stakes[/i]? Anyway, the way I set the level and complexity is by deciding how big a deal I think it should be, in play. That's part of the job of a 4e GM: to make those sorts of decisions about pacing. It's the out-of-combat analogue of deciding whether a given creature/NPC should be represented as a minion or not. I don't follow this at all. I posted two examples of play. In both the players decided what they wanted to achieve, and that was what led into a skill challenge. How are you imagining that players, having decided what they want to achieve, don't know what they want to achieved? Can you elaborate on that? In the examples posted, a player decides to make a Nature check to calm a bear using Ghost Sounds to soothe it; a player decides to make a point by using a (concealed) Bedevilling Burst to upset some desserts; a player decides to try and pressure (bully?) a NPC into revealing himself, by his PC addressing him by his Goblin rather than Common name, and another player decides to double down on that; a player decides to remove a point of pressure (the socially weak Derrik) by (in character) suggesting that they go take a leak; etc. What control do you see the GM exercising? [/QUOTE]

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